bones issues ?

[Alessandro Padovani]

As for commit ec6cf2f I see there are some changes in the imported bones thanks to @engetudouiti. I’m not sure I understand the difference between the blender legacy and the new daz studio mode. But I noticed the pectoral bones are not imported anymore for the G8F figure. They seem to be imported fine for the Eyelashes figure though.

Test scene included.

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[engetudouiti]

I now test new G8 export scene, with recent plug in version,but my import G8 have pectoral as same as before.

Did you activate the pectoral bone layer in armature property> Skelton> layers?

I do not clear remember, as default plug in auto-set, all bone layer activate or not. but you may check current bone layer.

[engetudouiti]

I confirmed as default, when import G8rigs, G8 pectoral bone locate in layer 2. then they are not auto activated so it may hidden.

On the other hand,, eye lash rig have pectoral . then the pectoral locate on the first bone layer as same as other bones.

So what you need is,, just activate bone layer 2 as visible.

[engetudouiti]

Then if you have interesting what actually change,

1 In daz studio. load genesis 8 , select genesis8 rig.

2 Set active tool as “joint editor” so now you see all bones.

3 from tool sub menu “Align > Align all bones”

you may see all bones moved slightly. (of course you should not save as Figure etc, without you hope to keep current modify)

Though roll is still different, (because DS try to auto set, roll and change orientation with the action) but the “Align all bones” show old version rig which importer have generated in blender.

if you do not hope to change G8 rig, it means, recent importer offer same rig, which you loaded G8 in daz studio.

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[Alessandro Padovani]

Thank you @engetudouiti for the nice explanation.

As for the pectoral bones I see they’re in layer two together with the eyes bones. I see in the user documentation that this is because they are driven bones that are kept separated by posable bones. So this makes sense.

https://diffeomorphic.blogspot.com/p/corrections-section-version-15.html

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As for the new daz studio bones, I see that align bones changes the bone orientation both in daz studio and blender. But I fail to understand what this is about. I mean, is there any advantage in using daz sudio bones rather than blender legacy bones ? Does it fix something that didn’t work before ?

If there’s any reason it would be useful to explain it in the user documentation.

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[engetudouiti]

Adjust roll and decide bone tip have clear reason for posing to get best roll and local axis for creature mesh flow. The more you set roll correctly, (decide how local axis set) it work better to set constrain or driver with local axis.

If you edit it,, it means you change local axis direciton . so even thouh you “twist” bone as same as daz, with use Twist local axis parameter, you actually see different defomation.

More simple answer is,, the new import option offer same rig without any customize. (unnecessary and Thomas not intended)

if you use the old options , it means your rig show “Auto Align” applied node in daz studio. But daz do not offer it to user adjust base figure rig. it is just for user who make rig for their mesh. but after all vendor may re-orientate to adjust roll, to get best deform.

Do you like to edit base figures bone tip or roll as you like and hope to use it rather than daz offer default base?

Importer have offered the rig which customized without intention. so now importer import rig as daz made so.

I know you like to represent material as same as daz. you hope to see almost same material in daz studio. It is same thing.

And there is no merit to use “auto align node” rig . it not made to offer best bone arrangement.. it is only used to easy set bone as temp with use daz end points (handler to move bone in rig-mode)

after that, vendor may try best roll and bone length with use bone orientaton. So if vendor made wrong about their bone setting this plug in show as same as daz studio. if vendor do best effort to set bone local axis etc,, when import them it show the bone arrangement as same as daz.

[Alessandro Padovani]

not a bug but may need more information

[Alessandro Padovani]

Since daz studio and blender use different methods for the roll angle, I can’t get how one is better than the other. May be a practical example where the advantage is shown would make things clear.

Or do you mean the bone properties are no more needed with the daz studio bones ? This would be a code simplification I guess.

[engetudouiti]

To be frankly said,, the main personal reason why I request this again and again, I really did not like pectoral bones local axis roll strange way when import from daz. I simply plan to add some constrain or pose controller for custom character, but the arrow direct diagonal.. when we plan pose driver or constrain, for up-and down or side to side,, the diagonal direciton not offer any usable parameter in blender.

It is still my mistery, why many importer show such diagonal direciton ,(auto align node not move so) but I suspect most of importer use same logic to generate rig from daz exporter generate files. (FBX or collada etc)

They never represent what daz rig tool do in daz studio. so they offer aproximate rig setting. So even though for many user, they do not know what have changed,, to adjust pectoral or pose,, current rig is best for me ^^;

[engetudouiti]

Alessandro,, how set roll by blender or daz is perfectly different thing.

after all we try to set roll as mesh flow and mechanical design.

It is not matter,, what aprication tool we used to set rig, As I said,

old way is simply wrong to represent vendor offer rig.

or new way show rig more correctly as vendor planned.

(so it it not aprication difference)

[engetudouiti]

Practical example is arleady shown in blender.

you just set visible local axis, then see how bone move. recent version offer local axis and bone tip as same as daz vendor offered.

If you do not like it,, you means you do not like daz vendor rig. After all there is no reason to use old way to import daz rig. But I do not need to exagarate what have changed, so if you can not understand merit, I recommend no need to use it. (seriously. so I suppose thomas offered option as same as before. then I never asked Thomas to set new mode as default.. if Thomas do not like it, I suppose Thomas return it. I have no complain. I just try to get same rig as daz studio in blender it is all.

[engetudouiti]

1 blender and daz studio have different tool to set bone roll (local axis direction which 1st 2nd 3rd pose direction)

2 when make rig we set local axis for mechanic, and meshflow. so rig can pose with use local axis logically. (if you change roll and bone tip, it change how twist, it change how side-side, or it change when you use blender x y z parameter with Eular)

it is same as daz studio. daz studio pose parameter (Twist , bend up-down etc, or X, Y, Z rotation) follow real bone local axis of rest pose.

so if you “twist” , you should see bone twist with the bonel axis.

then in daz studio, bone tip handle not represent, real bone tip position . because it is just visuall tool to manipulate bone.

(and it decide bone length.. so how you move the tool.. it only change bone scale)

3 old import way. unintenionally or simply it is more easy to get each value and represent,, plug in generate rig with use the bone tip handle location. (even though it is made to adjust rig, so it have no effect to change bone local axis, only effect scale and flip bone)

4 new import way correct it.. it now get real bone tip postion, and generate rig in blender.

So I can not imagin, there will be user hope to generate rig which daz do not offer (use wrong parameter which not represent real bone tip and roll), it is not matter which aprication we try to import.

we hope to get same bone tip and roll as same as daz offered.

[Alessandro Padovani]

Thank you again for the nice explanation. I now see what you mean. If I look at the pectoral bones as you suggested then the blender legacy bones get a strange roll angle compared to daz studio. This doesn’t seem to happen with the other bones though.

I guess we can state then that the new daz studio bones don’t fix things as far as functionality is concerned, but they represent better what we get in daz studio. I believe this example or a similar one may be added to the docs so the users can understand what the new bones are for. Also if there are no bugs around I can’t see any reason to keep the blender legacy bones.

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[engetudouiti]

Alessandro Padovani

Yes though it may not be shown so clear like pectoral, actually you can believe, all bone roll slightly change (and end points location too).Then if you get some machine, which not align clean, you may easy see real strange bones as visuall when you import. because vendor do not set visuall handll (they know it need not), to align visuall bone.

To answer your question “do you mean the bone properties are no more needed with the daz studio bones ?”

No. it still need for user to set bone but for temp and easy work. you And you can not controll bone roll as you designed with the end point value. (so it can not change bone roll at all) . you need to use orientatiion then it decide real roll. end point value only effect bone scale. it is why make difference when we used the end point value.

I requested sometimes, to change daz rig tool. which can roll bone without use world XYZ rotaiton.. offer way simply twist bone as “same as blender” even though we aleady orientated edit-bones.

and ask offer way to auto-atach the tip handle to real bone location. but DAZ never offered it (though I do not know recent beta offered it or not)

Actually even though vendor tutoriall, it had discribed, current orientation way is not good . (though I do not meniton whose vendor tutoriall etc)

when we set bone, with daz rig tool, we often feel, it is real difficult to adjust roll. (set local axis) precisely.

[engetudouiti]

I think I understand why you can not find new functionality of new import mode. I suppose you mainly use quartanion for posing, and may not care mach about local axis when posing.

Actually I remember I recommend to use the end points before, because when we rotate free, it make no difference so I might ignore even though it is not prefect same. (and I felt it is almost imposibble to get same daz roll in blender,,, for aprication difference to generate bone, at that time)

But if you try to pose with Eular local axis to decide twist or main pose direction, we can not ignore bone roll. It depend on user how set pose for anmation etc.

The local axis is important, when you consider, each bone main pose direciton and, set bone limit for each axis.

So now you bend your one finger,, it is main pose axis for the rig. if you change your fingure roll,, your finger bend sligtly change.

The theory can use when we set pose for actorl. eg I only hope to bend one bonewith main local axis, I do not need any twist or side side (2ndry pose direciton), just hope to bend precisely with mesh-flow.

About this case, I set local axis for rotation. not use quartanion. then just use main pose parameter, (usually X parameter of bone in blender) so now I can precisely bend bone, without any twist.

So if you can confirm current bone roll and end point represent daz studio offered rig it means we get functional advantage to set pose.
(though it is slight or real minimum like 2 degree etc,, it usually show more reasonable angle to bend.. because vendor made so.

[Alessandro Padovani]

With commit 8622851 Thomas added limits and locks, so now it is clear what’s the advantage of the new daz studio bones. May be limits could also solve some issues with rigify where the legs bend out of control for some poses. I mean if limits can be transfered to mhx and rigify as well.