sub-D modifier and multiresolution modifer , (blender and daz studio)

[engetudouiti]

I make topic, what Alesasndro had reported often. I did not test what Alessandro ciscribed seriously, but today I test to confirm which work-around is good to import HD morph as vector displacement. (we need to keep same shape for base and sub-D)

It had changed view with test so It make me difficult to understand actual difference for each options ^^; so I personally summarize. Anyway best way is test with cube and only apply sub-D level 1, and check each case in blender and daz studio.

Daz sub-D make sub-D mesh out of base mesh. that means, it make more large than base. there have no other option with cat-mulk so. sub-D > base so we hope to see same effect in blender (if we can ideally)

(as I discribed below, it is actually wrong. because to see true base resolution mesh, we need to set resolution level as base. DAZ studio show wrong base mesh, when we set resolution level as High with sub-D as 0 . then it cause miss understand as if sub-D mesh becom large then base mesh. )

in blender

1_ if we use sub-D modifier, with un-check limit surface, sub-D < base (a little)

2_ if we use sub-D modifier with limit surface, sub-D < base

3_ if we use mutliresolution modifier, and un-subdivide , then generate base mesh, sub-D > base

4_ if we use multiresolution modifier , to sub-divide. sub-D < base

Then as Thomas blender importer, use multiresolution + “Un-subdivide” and generate base resolution . it can show most looks like daz base mesh and each sub-D level boundary. (but the problem was one of them change vertex order from daz , though I do not know the reason, I actually not test much with HD version import, so I do not remember current limit etc)

the difference 3 and 4 of multiresolution modifier is almost blender side bug I suppose. (so I think maybe future, it may change. unfortunately I suppose so) so you may see strange thing, after use the multiresolution un-subdivide to generate base but use sub-Divide to make more high sub-D level , it now make the cube mesh, sub-D1 > base (same as daz studio) but sub-D2<sub-D1

Then if I will use HD morph as vector displacement map, even though it may change size of sub-D version, I may still use 1 (sub-divide modifier, with un-check limit surface. because sub-D modifer offer Adaptive sub-division (so it auto detect sub-D level,for high sub-D mesh when render) then at least we can keep same base level mesh as daz. (vertex order, and shape) .

Only when we apply sub-D, (to get HD version looks with vector displacement map, it may make size more small than daz sub-D version. so it may effect vector displacement map too. but I can suppose we can adjust it to use strength of the vector displacement map node. and fully sub-divide mesh, actually not show hard difference of boundary, so actually if we use HD mesh (level 3 etc) i suppose I can ignore this issue.

As fur future request,, there may be way we can adjust mesh boundary (edit base mesh size with shape key it driven by sub-D level), and it may show same boundary size. Only when we change sub-D level, in blender like daz… (so it can mimic daz sub-D) with use sub-D modifier without multi-resolution.

(Edit with more test, as sated below ) actually blender sub-D modifer show real base mesh boundary, when we set sub-D as 0, so it need not, because we need not get fake sub-D 0 mesh, which we see in daz studio. we need to keep real base (non-sub-D version) in blender. then when apply sub-D it show same boundary as daz do.

[engetudouiti]

And one more. I think it is more important (and maybe alessandro not check this issue I suppose)

in daz studio, if we change high to base in setting, it actually show same base mesh size, which we see in blender. So maybe what Alesasndro said was, if add on import mesh which keep high-reso then set resolution level as 0, we may see when change sub-D level1, sub-D1 > sub-D0 like this

Set Resolution level as High resolution + sub-D level 0 in daz studio

But if we return Resolution level as base , now it return shape as real base shape.

Then when we apply sub-D, we need to set resolution level = High in daz studio, then we may see sub-D level 1 mesh like this

Then actually what blender sub-D modifier do,

with sub-D level 0 = show same mesh as daz base.

with sub-D level 1 = show same mesh as daz sub-D1.

In daz studio, we may often see, with keep resolution level = high-resolution, then set sub-D level as 0 to 3,4 etc, but if we check real base shape, we need to set resolution level = base.

So actually maybe add on import mesh with High reso + multiresolution modifer option, make base mesh more small = (the size which we keep to set high resolution with sub-D level 0)

But actually it is not real base mesh size. I suppose.

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[engetudouiti]

So I may hope to test, how add on import mesh with 2 case.

1. set daz resolution level as High (apply sub-D) but keep sub-D as 0.
2. set daz resoltuion level as base .

If Thomas add on import 1 and 2 mesh differently, we may consider, the difference (blender and daz 3d sub-D) but if add on simply import as true base mesh. (not the mesh which we see in daz with set high-resolution with sub-D level 0) for both case,, It seems blender sub-D modifer actually show base and sub-D mesh correctly.

(not show fake daz studio sub-D 0 mesh boundary, which we set as high-resolution but sub-D = 0 in daz sutdio) and actually we do not care about this case.. because when we use high-resolution, we may not need to see fake sub-D level 0. it only matter if add on import the fake size mesh as base mesh.

So only option which we may need to consider, use Limit surface or not.. Then I actually test it.. Set un-check limit surface offer perfectly same boundary, for sub-D mesh. (level1) with comare real base mesh. (not daz fake sub-D level 0 with high-resolutiom setting)

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Then if add on HD import option (with use multiresolution un-subdivide then generate base) actually not import real base resolution mesh (make it small I suppose), we may need https://bitbucket.org/Diffeomorphic/import_daz/issues/198/non-destructive-way-to-import-hd-morph-can

sitll. Because I suppose we may hope to keep real base mesh, not daz fake sub-D levl 0 mesh (when we apply sub-D, daz change boundary of the mesh, even though we set sub-D as 0, blender modifeer never do it, only un-subdivide option seems happend to show same effect what daz sub-D do. as reverse)

(import real base resolution mesh as shape key and apply it as new base then overwrite un-subidived generate mesh), Though I do not strictly test this option, so if most of user not care it, it need not, )

[Alessandro Padovani]

@engetudouiti

1. daz subd to blender multires. The “non destructive HD” #198 is needed only if we export a daz subd as HD, for example a subdivided G8F exported as HD. Because that way we get a multires base mesh in blender that will be smaller than the original daz base mesh. But, when we export to HD we’re not really interested in the base mesh, but rather to preserve the HD shape so I suppose this is ok.

2. daz HD to blender multires. When we export a true daz HD to blender multires we’re fine. Because both daz HD and blender multires use “subd > base mesh”, that is, subdivision is outside the base mesh. This happens for example when we export Victoria 8 HD or Mutation HD for G8F or any HD figure. See #191.

3. daz subd to blender subd. We’re fine here too. Because the plugin exports the base mesh correctly, that is, it doesn’t export the daz subd at level zero that will be a smoothed base mesh, but it exports the real base mesh as we get it with base resolution in daz. Also as you noted we uncheck limit surface to get a perfect match with the daz subd. See #30 #288.

references: #30 #191 #198 #288

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[Xin]

The .dll subdiv matches Blender’s subsurface with limit surface disabled (it matches daz’s subdiv too). All of them are using the same library, “openSubdiv”. Whatever difference exists in vertex coordinates is a matter of settings, Multires in Blender always has limit surface enabled since it’s designed for sculpting, and for sculpting this is the desired option as it doesn’t shrink or expand the mesh with increasing subdivisions (after the first one), it keeps the volume stable.

Another reason why you should use Subsurface for displacements is because then you could use “Adaptive” subdivisions (you need to set Blender’s Feature Set to experimental to get this option). These can provide really high detail by applying subdivisions non-uniformly (although they are expensive memory-wise).

The only time this becomes an issue for the HD test addon is when you want to bake normals, since to make it easier it uses the multires and the “bake with multires” option. But this is ok since normals are defined in tangent space so the inaccuracies are not more problematic than the limitations of normal-mapping itself. It’s way easier and faster to use multires baking than trying to set up “selected to active” baking with the real base mesh.

For vector displacements, the “baking” (it’s actually faster than baking since there are no ray casts involved) is done entirely inside the .dll. Since the .dll matches daz’s subdivisions, there is no problem.

So I don’t think the addon should change anything. I agree with Alessandro.

[engetudouiti]

Alessandro

At first, actually I do not know what you means, “True daz HD”, to use HD morph we actually need to apply sub-D level in daz studio. so after all we import mesh as sub-D applied mesh. I often see you say “True HD” so I hope to know the word means. how you define “True daz HD” and sub-D mesh with HD morph?

Then as you said “Because that way we get a multires base mesh in blender that will be smaller than the original daz base mesh” so now we confirm it.

Then in many topic, you only show difference, without set resolution level as base for base mesh, then you said, in topic #191 like this..

“Below an example with the muta character at subd 0 then 2. We see that the subdivision is “inside out”. That is, the base mesh is smaller and inside the HD mesh, the same as the multires modifier does in blender.”

so now we confirm it was wrong. because actual base mesh is lager and outside the HD mesh in daz studio. to see base mesh, we need to set resolution level as base.

Then I hope to keep base as same as daz even though we use multiresoluton to un-subdivide for HD import. actually the issue 198 is the topic to get same base resolution mesh as daz studio when we use un-subdivide imported HD mesh by multiresolution modifier.

About 2 , as I said, I do not clear understand what you means true HD. so I need to ask the meaning. (true HD is sub-D applied mesh + HD morph. after all both import sub-D mesh.

About 3 , yes I think there seems no issue. then as I mentioned if I use vector displacement, I need not use multiresolution modifer (and un-subidivde) . And now I could confrim, blender sub-division modifer can show perfect same effect as daz sub-D. (we only see difference if keep resolution level as high with sub-D level 0 in daz studio. but it is not real base resolution, then real base mesh and sub-D mesh perfectly same in daz and blender.

then it may show only issue, when we use un-subidivde and generate base mesh. the generate base mesh now change as “daz high-resolution + sub-D level 0 mesh” (so it is not true base resolution mesh)

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[engetudouiti]

@Xin

Yes I understand what you means, (but I talk about Daz importer options for hd ^^; of course I hope to confrim it with your dll version too. now it seems what I expected. anyway I am happy waitiing to test your dll)

And yes I supposed actually dll do not bake VDM, but covnert as RBG value then generate VDM (without ray cast) from the file delta values. in dll.

Though I hope you confirmed it. (I could not confirm but supposed so)

[engetudouiti]

Alessandro without I miss something, your described case 2 is actually same as case 1. and it is what I consider, if you may confirm.

“Because both daz HD and blender multires use “subd > base mesh”, that is, subdivision is outside the base mesh. This happens for example when we export Victoria 8 HD or Mutation HD for G8F or any HD figure. See #191.”

The problem is, (why you thought so) you keep resolution level as high for HD character. then change sub-D level. so you felt, subD > base mesh. in daz studio, and it looks like, when we use mutliresolution modifier un-subdivide to get base mesh.

But it is not real base mesh, daz happend to show it, when we apply sub-D (set resolution level as high) for mesh but sub-D level = 0

Only when you set resolution level as base,, you can get real base mesh boundary in daz studio. then after all, when you apply sub-D and set level , sub-D< True base mesh. there is no difference about HD and just sub-divided mesh. (only difference is HD mesh add HD morph effect only)

A use sub-division modifier in blender, without check limit surface option.

blender sub-D level = 0 show true base mesh in daz studio. (set resolution level as Base) but it is different from mesh when we keep resolution level as High and set sub-D level =0 in daz studio.

I do not think we need to consider it. because when apply sub-D we want to get difference only when we set sub-D more than 1. we do not need to see fake sub-D 0 as high resolution. but hope to keep real base mesh (non sub-D version)

Then we add sub-D from 1 to 2,,3, 4 , the more sub-D level, It make mesh more small boundary then it is same about daz studio sub-D. (cat-malk) sub D =1 to 2, 3, 4

B use multi-resolution modifier in blender for base mesh. (there are 2 case, use un-subidivide to get base or not)

case 1 (do not use un-subdivide, use subdivide then get high resolution mesh)

when sub-D level 0 to 1, it shrink mesh from base, first. but after that, the more sub-divide, mesh boundary becom large . the behavor is unique , so not same in daz sub-D and not same blender sub-D modifier too. So if we hope to keep mesh as same as daz with each sub-D level, I do not think this modifier is good. if you do not care it, it offer many options to get dense sculpt without change base mesh.

case 2 (use un-subidivde then generate base mesh from subdivided mesh. eg get base from sub-D 4 applied mesh)

when sub-D level 0 to 1 it make mesh large, and the more sub-D level, it make mesh boundary more large. t

Then about both case,, sub-D = 1 to 2, 3, 4,, it make mesh more large. (sub-divide to outer) the only difference is when we set base = 0.. if we generate base by un-subdivide, it cause really shrink mesh. (if you test with one cube the edge size is almost 1/2,)

So plug in may use un-subdivide of multiresolution to get base resolution, actually it may make mesh hard shrink than daz base mesh. (of course about daz figure, they are already dense enough as base, then we may not see so clear issue. the more base mesh is simple, you may clear see generate base mesh shrink hard, from daz base)

And after all,, multi resolution make mesh more large from sub-D 1 to 2,3,4 so the behavor is opositte what sub-D modifier do. (blender and daz) only difference is , sub-D level 0 mesh. we happend to see the size looks like, daz fake resolution level 0 mesh (set resolution level as high). when generate base resolution mesh by multiresolution modifier un-subidivide.

But as I discribed already, it is not same size as true daz base mesh. (of course it depned user, who hope to use it as base with multiresolution, or hope to return true base mesh, with sub-D level 0 in blender)

About any -case, ideally multiresolution modifier may not good, to get same mesh for each sub-D level daz mesh. But of course, I know , it need to generate base resolution mesh when import HD (sub-Divided ) mesh. then we can still mix use base resolution actor, with high sculpted actor as we need.

I ideally hope to keep perfectly same base mesh + sub-D variation, then as my taste, I hope to return true base mesh, when we import HD mesh. (and generate base resolution mesh) (I think so we can import shape key etc, as we need later) though I do not request it seriously.

[Alessandro Padovani]

Thank you engetudouiti for reporting this. Indeed the base resolution image in #191 was wrong because I used subd zero instead of base res, this is fixed now. It was just a distraction of mine though, I did the test with base res and uploaded the wrong image. That is, I can confirm that daz HD gets subd > base res, the same as multires.

Below a blender wireframe of the exported objs that I also added to #191. Here we see base res vs HD.

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Then below we see it even better, I marked subd zero as green, base res as red, and hd as black.

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[engetudouiti]

No you still not understand, daz sub-D.. actually as I said you need not use HD etc.. you only need to check mesh which sub-D applied in daz. because when you apply HD morph, it can easy add delta for all sub-D verts then you may only see those delta effect when you set sub-D. so actually what you see in daz studio, with your actors. it just show your HD morphs make mesh large than base. (your character HD morph make it more wide), and it is often happen for creature meshes. vendor add detail more, and enhance it with HD morph. (so not simply smooth out, but pull outer mesh by HD morph, it is not means daz sub-D make mesh sub-divide outer.

Actually when you set more large sub-D, all poligons sub-divided more inner direction. at same time the more you add sub-D level, HD morph can work clear. so you still see illusion .(but it is HD morph effect, not related with how daz sub-D work.

Actually you may need not use HD morph and, may better remove all HD morph,

if you remove all HD delta first, and compare base, sub-D 1, sub-D2, you actually should confirm,, the more sub-D, the mesh shrink. it is same in blender and daz studio about sub-D modifier. (actually not shrink, but always sub-divide in inner direction, not outer)

(so I suppose you often say true HD, but it is just show difference, how daz HD morph effect sub-D verts. with each sub-D level)

How multiresolution work, is already we confirm. (but I describe all case, and it is perfectly different from which daz sub-D and blender sub-D modifier do..

only zero baes mesh (generated by un-suvdivide, happend to show us the daz fake zero sub-D mesh with high resolution.. then I do not think, it is good for me..

(after all we import HD with high sub-D applied mesh, (already sub-divide in daz studio), then it should be same as daz. so when use mutliresolution modifier + unsubdivide,, base is only matter. (what I consider,, if I can solve issue, as my taste,, but if user hope to get daz fake level 0 base (with high resolution), it is not matter for others. actually add on (multiresolution + unsubidivide) generate mesh so..

the multiresolution modifier main problem is,, it make sub-D as outer direction, it is not same as daz sub-D and blender sub-d modifier, , it should show different mesh, with each sub-D value.. (eg you may get sub-D 4 as same mesh as daz,(which you import with sub-D 4, then generate base by un-suvdivide),

after that if you set sub-D as 3 or 2.. it more shrink than daz mesh with each sub-D level. (only sub-D level 0 may show almost same size as daz fake sub-D 0 (with set high resolution). how sub-divide from base to the impoted level (sub-D 4) interporation may show clear difference from daz mesh.

Then I understand, why you think so, because I show same issue and miss understand first. (I actualy forget, we should set resolution level as base, when we import true base mesh,, I often reported it here or there long time ago,, but perfectly forget it ^^;)

, and when I apply HD morph with sub-D , HD morph often add hard deform in daz about creatures . (we may not see it with human character morph, but when vendor use HD morph for creature defomation, it more drastically change verts with high sub-D.. (they sculpt more as expand direction I suppose)

[engetudouiti]

To confrim how daz sub-D work,, you must need to remove HD morph first. with HD creature character. but keep base creature morphs as same as before. (so it only effect base resolution verts, with keep show creature shape without detail)

I actually test it with another HD creature.

then change sub-D level 1 to sub-D level 3, without HD morph delta.

It clear show me, daz sub-D divide mesh inner, (not outer) for each sub-D level added.

mesh boundary always more shrink (though all sub-D , try to keep boundary as possible, but how divide mesh is not outer, so boundary more small with smoothed out)

At same time If I return HD morph with sub-D 3 it really expand mesh. like this. so we can not check how sub-D work, if you keep HD morph effect. (we just confrim how HD morph add delta. then it make miss understand how sub-D work in daz studio)

sub-D level 3 without HD morph

sub-D 3 with HD delta

So the HD defomation is really clear with sub-D3. then we see it pull out mesh so outer, (it easy cause miss understand, sub-D pull out mesh, if we keep HD morph. but it is not sub-D, it cause by HD morph what Alessandro saw in daz studio.

[engetudouiti]

I actually test with duplicate same character with different sub-D ( real base, sub-D1, sub-D2, and 3) in daz studio, then confirm what I mentioned. (sub-D only sub-divide to inner direction and it is same what blender sub-D do. (about sub-D level 0 only show difference if you keep high^resolution in daz studio = I call it as Daz fake sub-D 0 mesh)

blender mutiresolution only make cage outer. from sub-D1 to sub-D3, and about base to sub-D1, it show difference how we use multiresolution (use un-subidivide then generate base or use sub-Divide and generate each sub-D level mesh from base)

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[Alessandro Padovani]

If you don’t use the HD morph then you don’t use HD so it’s a subd you’re testing. What do you mean to test HD without HD morphs ? As for multires it starts from the HD morph to build the base mesh, so the HD morph has to be there we can’t remove it.

If you mean that the HD morph applied to the daz base mesh gives a different result from multires, that’s not possible because multires starts from the HD morph.

If you mean that, for HD figures, the multires base mesh is not the same as the daz base mesh that’s quick to test. Below is the daz base mesh imported as obj vs the multires base mesh. They match perfectly I can go wild zooming any part.

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[engetudouiti]

If you don’t use the HD morph then you don’t use HD so it’s a subd you’re testing. 

Because there is no difference how blender sub-D work about mesh , with HD morph effect.

so I had said, you better remove HD morph. you still think

I can confirm that daz HD gets subd > base res,

What you have tested have no meaning. because it include HD morph effect and it only visible when we apply sub-D in daz studio. about your test morphs simply exclude mesh when sub-divided. then you said, true HD morph in daz studio, it sub-divide mesh outer. > base .but it is not related with sub-D at all. and it should change with each HD morph.

If your HD morph not exclude but shrink mesh hardly, you may thought daz 3d sub-divide, shirink mesh than base more hardly.

After all if you check how daz 3d sub-divide work, and report difference with blender, you must need to remove HD morph effect first. and it is not related with HD morph. (it just add delta for all sub-divided mesh.

If you mean that the HD morph applied to the daz base mesh gives a different result from multires, that’s not possible because multires starts from the HD morph.

Yes I know it. I did not say it,, because it is not related with how sub-D or multres modifer sub-D mesh.

If you mean that, for HD figures, the multires base mesh is not the same as the daz base mesh that’s quick to test. Below is the daz base mesh imported as obj vs the multires base mesh. They match perfectly I can go wild zooming any part.

I do not think your test use multires modifier “un-subdivide” process then get base mesh.

if it show same mesh, I do not know how add on generate base mesh from sub-divided mesh.

What I had tald, when sub-divided mesh are imported (sub-D applied) as obj or plug in. we need to see

daz sub-D shape = imported blender high resolution mesh

then generate “base mesh” by multires modifer, with “un-subdivide”.

the generated base shrink from daz real base shape.

If plug in did not use the multires modifer un-subdivide,, I do not know how plug in generate base mesh from high-resolution imported mesh.

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[engetudouiti]

Though I am not vendor, so actually how daz HD morph work still not clear understand, but,

HD morph only work with current sub-D level. so if you hope to see how daz sub-D work,, you need to remove HD morph. because one product may try to expand all sub-divided verts to outer. or another product HD morph may try to move verts innner (the mesh boundary). then the more you add sub-D (2 to 3 , real base to 1 etc), the more verts, and it can move.

so the more sub-D the more we see HD effect hardly. but daz 3d subdivision always try to sub-divide verts to inner.

So I often hoped to ask, why alessandro said often, sub-divided mesh, and true HD mesh may work differently about sub-D..(as for me,, it only depend how HD morph move verts only, then it not related with sub-D process, daz sub-D not change way to subdivide for HD morphed mesh or non HD morph mesh.

always try to sub-divide to inner direction of boundary. after that HD morph move current sub-divided verts. but the direction is perfectly different about each HD morph , (if vendor hope to expand, they expand, if vendor hope to shrink hard they make so)

So Alessandro test with muta HD morph then the prodcut HD morph may expand mesh even though daz sub-D , subdivide mesh inner boundary,,(subD < base (real)), the muta HD morph expand, verts, then final effect was sub-D mesh> base mesh about your selected HD morph.

Then actually there is no meaning to use HD included mesh (which change HD morph effect with sub-D in daz studio only) to test for blender sub-D and multires. it simply cause miss undersanding to check how sub-divide mesh Daz 3d and blender.

Because blender never offer such HD morph shape key, which can move all verts with sub-D level. so we only see sub-D effect in blender, not see HD morph effect correctly with each sub-D level. blender shape key only move real base mesh verts.

[engetudouiti]

Alessandro, you can imagine HD morph which only shrink verts, or only move one verts which you may not check. If I can make HD morph, I may make it. (and compare without HD morph or with HD morph)

Then you still think, daz HD gets subd > base res ? even though the HD morph only move verts shrink, it is still HD morph.. if you apply such HD morph, and test same thing,

you may not say, daz HD get subd > base res. you did 2 things for your reports.

1_ you have test with keep high resolution and sub-D level 0 as base. But it shrink real base (resolution level as base) in daz studio. (it cause different how blender sub-D modifier work) so you could not check how daz sub-D subdivide mesh for real base.

then already you confirm it. (as for me it was real problem which I miss understand too)

after all, blender and daz 3d show same sub-D effect. if we compare real base mesh, and sub-divided mesh with uncheck limit surface option (it introduced with 2.8 later I suppose)

2_ you have test mesh which include your select HD morphs. of course it is not bad thing, with compare non HD morph sub-D mesh, but you can not say, daz HD gets subd > base res

Because it depend on each HD morph product. if HD morph shrink sub-divided verts, it not work. (and to make things clear, you can imagine, non delta HD morph product, = remove HD delta)

this is what I hope Alessandro confirm. (I did not plan to make this topic, to ask Alessandro why think so, but actually I hoped you may understand, there is no difference how sub-D work for sub-D mesh and HD morph. applied mesh, which you often described in topics related with HD morph. the reason why I do not ask it, I did not test them at that time. but just think there seems some miss understand about HD morph effect.

About multi-resolution (blender), I do not think we need to test with imported mesh. But I may test how plug in generate base mesh with recent version. if it have changed, and it actually generate same base resolution mesh from high sub-divided mesh, there seems no issue which I request about add on.

And even though plug in not generate base mesh as same as daz studio, I have confirmed my procedure already work. in topic #198 then I could keep real base mesh with multiresolution modifier. (so when I need to see HD morph effect, I simply set multiresolution sub-D so. because I believe it is perfectly same mesh as daz HD morph included only when I set sub-D level as same as daz setting. which I imported from daz.

And one reason I consist this issue you said in #198 ,

@engetudouiti

It seems we’re very lucky and the HD figures in daz studio use the same subdivision method as the multires modifier in blender. That is, we don’t need to fix the base mesh.

I do not think so. and I could not see same sub-divide process, daz studio sub-D and blender multires. (at same time blender change how multiresolution sub-D work, by generate base with un-subdivide or subdivide from base mesh. you already confrimed it I think.

But about both case, blender multiresolution actually sub-divide mesh outer .(only base mesh change) for each subdivision process. (sub D1 to sub D2, subD2 to subD3) .

only subD-0 (base) to subD-1, it first set boundary as inner. then if we generate base by un-subdivide.. the base shrink hard. (as if we set high-resolution and sub-D = 0 in daz studio.

so I supposed you think it is same as daz sub-D), but daz sub-D always subdivide mesh to inner boundary. (then it is not related HD morph applied mesh = True HD figures only difference is the high resolution mesh include HD morph effect or not.

it never means,” HD figures in daz studio use the same subdivision method as the multires modifier in blender.”

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[engetudouiti]

Then (I think Alessandro say, it is not HD figure, but test only with sub-D mesh) I test actually how Daz importer will import mesh with HD options,, but just apply sub-divided cube in daz studio.

set sub-D 3 in daz studio. like this (so daz sub-D actually shirnk mesh (or sub-divide in inner direction which we confirm)

Then check how base show difference in blender (by import add on HD option)

1. HD with multiresolution modifer version. (labelled as Cube_HD)

when sub-D 3 , (I expect it should be same shape in daz sub-D 3. and it seems work correctly..= import as obj file)

So add on need to generate base mesh for HD cube, it use un-subdivide. then generate base . to check it I set sub-D as zero for the HD cube.

It actually shirnk when we apply sub-D as 0 with multiresolution (add on generate base with “unsubdivide”)

at same time add on kindly import real base too (with subdivision modifier as labell cube only) And it should be perfectly same as daz real base.

you can compare, how blender “un-subdivide” process effect the cube size. Then I hoped to correct it by import the real base cube shape as shape key for HD version base. and apply it.

Then I could return true zero sub-D base size. but unfortunatelly it effect sub-D 3 version like this

, so I need to re-import sub-D 3 version by use multiresolution modifier Reshape option.

Now I finally get size correctly for HD cube (multiresolution) with base and sub-D 3. (do not expect 1 and 2 show same size)

base = Daz True base,

with sub-D 3 (with use reshape)

Then finally I could use this HD mesh with multiresolution, as keep same size in daz sub-D

[engetudouiti]

And for Alessandro, I understand after all we use HD morph when import as HD. so I offer clear case why you should not say daz HD gets subd > base res

You may not against, if vendor offer muta beta HD morph which work opositte direction. and I test with this case. Of course no vendor offer such HD morph. (at least), but actually we can mimic the HD morph easy.

In parameter setting select your HD morph and change setting without limit, then set value as minus 1.

So it represent, you add muta beta HD morph. You may clear see, this time, daz HD get subD < base res hardly.

unfortuantely I do not have muta HD, but have regendary demon for G2 HD. then I made beta demon HD morph (by set as minus one. the mimic it)

then I change sub-D level (with set high resolution) as 1 with keep add HD morph.

you confirm the HD creature (beta version) morph with sub-D, it shrink mesh from base hardly.

then set sub-D as 2

So about this case, you should confrim with real HD morph, daz HD get sub D< base

If you think, it is wrong because I use HD morph as minus. you can imagine actually vendor can make HD morph to work opositte direction (if you need) as they like. or actually you could set HD morph value more low like 0.1 etc, then you may see daz HD get sub D< base. (slightly expand still though, but you might not say HD get sub-D > base.

Of course it have no actual meaning, it only show, HD morph effect not related with daz sub-D function.

[Alessandro Padovani]

I can confirm that with a negative HD morph the multires base mesh is smaller than the daz base mesh. I wonder if this is a real case scenario though. Anyway, if this is a common case, then it means multires may work or not depending on the HD figure. That is, the HD shape is always the same as daz, then the base mesh may be the same or not, depending on the positive or negative HD morph. Again, since we’re really interested in the HD shape rather than the base mesh, this may be fine for a practical use.

Below the negative HD morph applied in daz studio.

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Below the imported daz base mesh as green, and the multires base mesh as red, with a negative HD morph.

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[engetudouiti]

I do not think negative direction HD morph are usuall, but at same time, it show if you use HD morph, which may slightly expand for sub D verts,, it may not show you, HD gets subd > base res. then I said you better remove HD morph first.

the difficulty thing was , you think (almost believed I felt) HD morph applied mesh = True HD may not use same sub-D for daz studio . Because actually your selected muta may easy show it. as if sub-D > base.

but it is not related with HD morph how sub-D work. (so I hoped you confirm, what you means true HD)

And I do not expect, we can get base shape as same as daz, because as you said, we add delta for all sub-divided mesh by HD morph in daz. they are baked when we import, and blender only can un-subdivide to get base. it should be different from daz base . (though HD morph usually include base verts delta too)

blender never show same effect as we see in daz with each sub-D level for true HD figure, (daz change HD morph effect for each sub-D level, but we can not represent it in blender, additionary, as we confrimed, the multiresolution un-subdivide shirnk mesh. so it cause double effect for generated base mesh.

Then I do not against,” since we’re really interested in the HD shape rather than the base cage, this may be fine for a practical use.” ,. It is my taste, to keep base as clean so I may use import the daz base (which already imported with HD version) then use same workflow to return true base for HD version. I discribed above.

My purpose is, so I can remove, the non HD version, but still use base only change multiresolution modifier setting. then when I hope to return HD morph , set sub-D so with multiresolution modifier.

When import morph, or I add new morph in blender, and if I send back mesh to daz for base resolution to generate new morph file for daz. I need to keep Base mesh shape for shape key base. then it is important for me. (but I do not against other user only interestiing to keep HD morphed high resolution mesh in blender)

[Alessandro Padovani]

Yes for true HD I mean a HD morph applied to the figure, as opposed to subdivision without HD morph. As for #198 as I said in my first post it is good. It seems just not necessary for the practical use. You know I like things simple when possible.

[engetudouiti]

I know you like simple (and not have interesting to keep base as same as daz much)

What I really hoped you confirm , you had said in many topics which HD morph related. with your test.

1 non true HD (but sub-D ) , sub-d < base.

2 true HD (with HD morph) daz HD get sub D> base

3 about true HD figure, (with HD morph) , daz sub-D work as same as blender multiresolution (with use un-subidivide)

Then I felt they are somehow miss understand, (or you only see HD morph effect (then the product HD morph seems expand verts ) so I sometimes try to deny it..

But you said many times so, with muta HD pictures. Then I finally tried to confirm it with test., if there was any difference how daz sub-D will subdivide mesh, when HD morph applied.

my conculusion is,, (and I believe you have same conculusion finally)

there is no difference about daz sub-D work. for real HD and sub-divided only mesh (without HD morph), the difference is only caused by HD morph delta. then you may confirm,

About test with some HD morphs, when set sub-D level, it show sub-D shape > base. but it is caused by HD morph delta, so it not related with how daz sub-D work. always daz sub-D try to sub-divide mesh for inner directon. but it will be deformed by HD morph hardly with sub-D level.