I need option only change fin and shape key limit in advance option

[engetudouiti]

I like to change limit of daz import morph props with advance option (not with import global setting)

Then I hope there is option which can only change fin (internal? ) and shape key limit in advance option, so I can easy change moprh limit temporally.

fin and shape key usually need to set same limit but slider limit is not .

at current the advance option change all property limit (slider and property) with the user input min and max.

when user change limit of props, about daz morphs, we need to have 2 different limit (min and max) for slider, and final value (which include driven values) so I just request, there is option, which can only set fin and shape keys limit (when fin have the shape key) not change slider limit. (I do not hope to limit slider =raw value as default as same as daz raw value)

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[engetudouiti]

Then change raw porperty limit as slider limit is reasonable. (because actually it limit the slider min and max) ,

but rename final value as internal is not good naming .

because the value is actually the current property or morph value which currently work.

if user think the value is internal, the user never know current property value of each morphs.

in blender when we set driver for prop, there is no slider value. (we can not change value free) , then user everytime see final value.

if user only see slider value it always set as zero. (or they are simply ignored)

Then when we see property value which set driver, we do not call it as internal .

actually we need to know final value to understand how the property is used. user input value not tell user real value at all.

That is reason, daz do not show us slider value (raw value) but only show us the final value (include driven value) .

so fin prop value should not be called as internal. (if we really use internal , it is drv values, but we do not have such prop)

UI slider = (daz raw) , final = (daz property value) , we see it with slider, but it is not value which user change)

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[Thomas Larsson]

Changed the name back to final. Now there are limits for slider and final values. This may still cause confusion, but probably less so than any other names.

[engetudouiti]

Thanks the limit for advance option is good enough now.

The confusion is after all, (if you need to guide users)

we can not make perfect same daz ERC parameter (slider) by blender. Daz show final value of the property with slider (user off set)

Blender slider value is hidden in daz studio as raw ( user off set value of the property)

each daz property gather 2 different property (blender user off set value and final value) as one parameter. it never happen in blender.

[Alessandro Padovani]

I’d really like to see the user docs updated with some explanation about how to use these “final” values and why they’re there. Until now I couldn’t understand a thing myself about it.

[engetudouiti]

Alessandro if you do not need to check morph value but only need to know how move each slider (raw value), then it work for your purpose, you need not to show final value, but only check and use slider value.

Then I may ask you, when you need to check current one morph effect in daz studio, then now you see the morph value (eg) eye close R = 0.5

how you think the value? if the morph value not driven by other morph, you can think it as slider value. but you may often drive eye close R with other expression or other face unit or custom morphs.

Then now user hope to adjust in blender, to close eye R as 0.5 (half close). if there is only slider value whch user input (off set) . and not show final value, I do not think user can make your character as eye close 0.5 without change other morph values. (angry or shape morph or custom morph)

By use final value, you can adjust each morph value effect , with real value. if you only use slider value , it not tell you, after all how r eye closed. then daz show final value for each morphs. (not show you slider value, (raw value), untill you open parameter setting.

Of course I agree after all Thomas may need to describe those difference (daz raw, daz property value) and blender property value difference) for user.

As my view, if add on not show, final prop (as value), it make user more difficult to understand how it work. (and as my purpose, I often need to check final value with mix use many morphs, so I can not imagine, not show final value in UI)

[Alessandro Padovani]

I’m not sure I follow. May be some pictures would help. Are you saying that the slider values in daz studio are not the same as the slider values in blender ? That is, a 0.5 slider value in daz studio is not 0.5 in blender ?

I just tried eyes closed at 50% in the slider and they seem the same to me in daz studio and blender. I just can’t get what final values are for and how they are supposed to be used. I’d like to understand it. User docs please.

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[engetudouiti]

I said so, “the slider values in daz studio are not the same as the slider values in blender “

why you think it is same, because you only use one slider . but let set value with use eye close.

eg set daz studio eye close slider = 1, then set daz studio eye close r slider = 0.5 directly input value.

then do same thing in blender eye close and eye close r please.. then you may understand what I means.

or you may mix use many morphs which change eye close r value, then you see eye close value change even though you do not slide.

but in blender, how many morphs drive the eye close r, you can not check it untill show fin value.

[engetudouiti]

If you do not need to detail etc,, I just say,

Blender final value = Daz parameter value in UI about each morph or controller or hidden props. so if you hope to know the Daz parameter value, you need to activate or actually check fin prop value in blender.

Actually all add on slider which we controll in blender have shown daz raw value only. not have shown real daz value. we did not care about it, because, untill try to import complex ERC morph, we only use simple silder and morph which may not be driven by many other propertys. (so we ignore the problem)

eg I like G3, because most of standard daz morphs not drive each. (so even though I do not show fin value, about G3,, usually it not matter for me.

because there is not many expression which may drive g3 face unit, usually.

default G3 expression driectly move each bone. (so not drive face unit for g3 most of case), but if I use G8 as main, many expression not directly change bone pose, but change Facs unit value.. so to know current Facs unit value, (as same as daz), you need to check Final value. (or you only get, how you move the Facs unit by your sefl.

[engetudouiti]

See this pic, now I set in Daz studip parameter (direct input) values, for Eyeclosed as 1.0, then set Eyeclosed L as 0.5 then now daz show those values for each props.

Eyeclosed = 1.0, then it drive EyeCloseR and L as 1.0, but I can change daz slider value for EyeClose L as 0.5.

so after all

EyeClosed = 1.0, EyeClosedR = 1.0 . EyeCLosedL = 0.5 show like this pose. (and you can easy understand how each morph working with daz slider value)

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then now input same value in blender for those 3 props (eye close, eye close r, eye close l) as blender slider value without show fin value.

it show like this.

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So even though not talk complex things, actually you can confirm ,Daz slider value is not same as blender slider value at all for each morphs.

when the property was driven. (about this case only one property drive your check morph = eye close L

[engetudouiti]

Then I try to manuall set, each 3 prop value as same as daz,, You can use math to get each slider value about this case.. but if there are many props which drive you do not know. anyway you hope to set, Eye L as half close as same as daz. so I activate Fin value, and check the Eye L close value.

Daz parameter value = Blender fin (final) value. so I need to adjust EyeClose L final value as 0.5 with tweak slider. then make this.

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After get same pose, I may check slider value, then I confirm I need to set slider value as -0.5 for LeyeClosed, when it is driven by eyeclosed 1.0

you can confirm blender fin value = daz slider value (UI parameter value). then you can get same effect with use same parameter (propertys)

without fin value, you can not. (or you need to self cicrulate daz raw value it only work when you know all morphs relation, ^^;)

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Then I often said, raw value because, if you open those parameter setting in daz studio, you confirm,

now L eye close Raw = -0.5 in daz studio, as same as Bleder L eye close slider value, lets check it please. (click gear and check the raw value of R eye close.

you should see it auto set as -0.5. the value is which we set in blender as slider value)

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I miss input R and L (sorry) the now edit them correctly, but you should see same things,

so anyway,, (even though user do not know why )

daz raw = blender slider, daz property value (value we see in UI as the prop value) = blender final value.

so if you hope to know daz property value, you need to check blender final value (use option to show them in UI, or serch around the fin property)

So I attach those pic for closed topic, then I hope Alessandro anyway confirm clear. OK?

the slider values in daz studio are not the same as the slider values in blender. That is, a 0.5 slider value in daz studio is not 0.5 in blender.

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[Thomas Larsson]

It is highly non-trivial to wrap your head around this, but I think I finally understand what is going on. I just wrote a blog post about this: https://diffeomorphic.blogspot.com/2021/05/on-raw-and-final-slider-values.html.

[engetudouiti]

It is because, when I start daz (10 yeas ago or more ? I do not remember, anyway did not know anything about 3d) I often feel, daz parameter is really strange so I often tweak those, with make ERC morphs.

So as for me it is not complex thing, just think daz property work so. (then when I start blender driver, I really feel difficult to manage driver, controller value and driven value are separated as different props. )

Then I may hope to add one thing, which may help user to understand about daz raw value.. it is basically hidden, but when you save morph preset, or pose preset,

it only describe each property raw value.. then when import it by Thomas add on (with check morph), it set those raw value for each morph slider.

that clear show, Daz Raw value is value which user input for Blender UI slider. then it is not same as daz parameter (slider or final or property) values.

eg If I save the above pose . as pose preset, someone may think,, it describe Eye Closed Left = 0.5 but real pose.duf describe like this

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                "url" : "name://@selection#eCTRLEyesClosed:?value/value",
                "keys" : [ [ 0, 1 ] ]
            },
            {
                "url" : "name://@selection#eCTRLEyesClosedL:?value/value",
                "keys" : [ [ 0, -0.5 ] ]
            },
            {
                "url" : "name://@selection#eCTRLEyesClosedR:?value/value",
                "keys" : [ [ 0, 0 ] ]
            }

so when you set Eyes closed L morph value in daz studio as 0.5 , with use another morphs (like eye closed) which drive the Eyes closed L value,,

ds actually auto circulate raw value. = -0.5 then set it internal (so raw is more internal circulated value..)

then the raw value is described and used when load the pose duf.. >> daz set raw value as duf described for each prop >> user only see final value change (about this case it should be 0.5)

then when we use it for blender, we set Daz hidden raw value as blender UI slider value >> blender fin value (or fin prop) show the daz morph value.

without final value, user can not check the daz value. = the strength how the morph currently worked (include user raw and other driver effect)

[engetudouiti]

Though as for me, I can manage as I need, but if user think final value is not important, there should be miss understanding.

Final value is actual effect of the morph. then when set limit as same as daz we need to set limit for final value. it is important to use this add on morphs.

you can use slider as you like, then it can adjust final effect, but without set limit for final value, it often mess up. and not show same effect as daz.

daz really often use limit to control mesh deform. then when use expression, it auto restrict driven morph value to avoid mesh break. then user can mix many expression easy.

if user do not set limit for final value, it should cause un-expected deform when user use expression which drive many face unit. even though user notice it as visual infomation (because your character face broken,) user do not know which face unit was auto driven and cause current issue. user may try to change expression values which currently used. But actually you need not change expression but only change the problem face unit which is driven. if user set limit for final value correctly, even though many expression drive the same face unit, user do not need to care it. because face unit (final) is auto limit when reach max or min = not break deform with use same expresison.

So Final limit is more important to get reasonable morph effect. slider is only off set value. to adjust current shape .

[Alessandro Padovani]

Yes I understand it now it is a sort of global limit for multiple sliders on the same morph. So it makes sense and provides extra control. Personally I tend to use a single expression at at time with some units to fine tune it. Or use the facs controls for G81. So there’s not much use of final in those cases. But it’s good to have it.

[engetudouiti]

Yes Alessandro it is right. I though it is just word problem though, but I hope you know clear understand, because you may often help others when there is question in ds forum, so you may better to know when it need. thanks.

[engetudouiti]

then,, it is not only about multiple sliders (it related with though),, most of expression simply add value (with some step value) for current face unit.

then if user mix 3 morphs, it may effect face unit without user notice it. then it can easy over limit . but in daz we do not see such effect, because face unit is limit by 1.00 as max (auto restricted)

if user understand it correctly, maybe user need not set min and max for final. but even though I really often check morphs, I do not know which face unit currently driven at all. so set limit for face unit final value (or any morph) as same as daz is most simple way to auto restrict exceed strength. then I can free mix expression. but (keep each face unit in range)