Hope bsdf option which not generate any volume shader for skin
Issue #573
resolved
first download the attached duf file. and open in daz please and see the volume sss effect in daz please.
Though I think trying to convert iray volume scatter (SSS) as blender volume nodes scatter is not bad idea. but if add on use it as default, it may better to make it work actually. because with bsdf option, and when the skin use volume chromatic = set different RGB for scatter and absorption, add on always try to use blender volume scatter nodes to get kind of SSS effect.
If add on work so, it seems better to test with actual case, it only use translucency (diffuse) + volume scatter case. with simple distance light .
so first load this file please in daz studio. I use primitvie and only use iray uber default , and distant light to show how skin translucency and volume scatter , transmissive work. at least to get real SSS effect we need to see such effect . with strong directional light scene. (usually back light etc)
the sphere radius = 25cm, then the skin is full translucency with no glossy. it is base color of the volume.
I set translucency dolor as “1.00 0.89 0.78 “ of course I can do as 1.00 1.00 1.00 but may better to add some color for test to clear see.
and set full translucency = Translucency weight = 1.00
then diffuse or glossy or refraction not effect this skin ball.
you see with light direction, the volume scatter color gradually change as my setting scatter color R, G , B
of course it is multipled with translucency color (filter), and change with each point transmissive color.
if I set transmissive color more pure white, it means to keep translucency color for more distance. I hope to show clear gradualtion to check SSS effect, so set transmission distance as 75 cm. if I only test SSS effect I may prefer to set as 200 etc, and set color almost white. and only tweak scatter color and distance, (but basically my setting is reasonable one with this scale object)
Anyway save the scene and open in blender. it show like this
So actually current add on generate volume mix with translucency not show any interensting SSS effect. maybe just merged with abosorption and translucency and scatter color .
If I try to remake it with blender offer SSS node, I can show almost same effect, but if you can make it with Volume nodes, (so it is default of bsdf option), I simply hope, to get reasnable SSS effect of this scene duf.
or it actually show, add on not convert well translucency and SSS skin (most of daz iray skin may use it)
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please if you ask my setting etc, simply download this duf, and improt to daz. and show your pic, it work or not.
so I have recommended, we may better not use volume scatter for represent daz skin SSS, though it use iray volume. but if current add on show same SSS effect, it is not problem (you find new way. though use Volume nodes easy cause heavy performacen for render, then I usually hope to avoid it too, without we really need to use it, for skin, I do not think so at all.
I have never seen cycles skin shader witch try to use cycles volume scatter to represent skin (translucy + sss ), and there is almost no document or sample which use volume scatter node to represent human skin sss effect most of all product skin shader may use SSS node (not volume) you currently not use it for iray chromatic volume skin. (then try to mimic by volume scatter node)
I can suppose, volume transmission may work, but it may not need to represent iray skin transmissive. anyway main problem isem is skin (translucency) + SSS effect (iray dev said it is more improtant for human skin than absorption) not work correctly with current set up.
Comments (38)
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Engetudouiti, of course you’re welcome to try to improve things. But please understand that the volumetric skin is not a “catch it all“ solution, it is designed around a realistic sized figure with realistic skins. Your example uses extreme values (75 cm trasmission and 25 cm scattering) and it doesn't fit a realistic case.
You may want to test real daz figures, or at least a skin with realistic values.
Then my own opinion about mixing sss and translucency is you shouldn’t do it, because they are very different effects. But again you may want to test real daz figures with strong backlights to see if your method may work fine. Though as I understand it this doesn’t seem to fit an automatic conversion either.
p.s. Specifically, if you want to use translucency, I’d advise you to test the mouth area with strong backlights, where translucency may show inner geometry, while volumes and sss don’t.
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No need I test with real skin etc ,because I already do same thing always for all improted characetr. never use Volume scatter node for skin (it is bad joke for me)
Then if you can not show SSS effect with this size ball (50cm diameter), you actually can not show any real SSS effect, skin ball diameter is not matter to show SSS effect.
I can do same thing for any realistic skin with adjust SSS RGB and scale only. What I hoped to show is,
“ There is no merit,, use Cycles Volume Scatter node for human skin (with translucency) at all”.
And there is clear reason why I mix use SSS and translucency color. I do not hope to use volume absorption too. (it is almost nonsense to use for blender cycles with translucency color) then just to adjust aproximately with keep SSS effect, I mix use them. but ideally (and most of real product skin shader) may mix use 2 or 3 layer SSS shader .
but it depend you. so mix use as you need. use dobule SSS node, or with mix tranculucency etc.
I reported this , to clear show , add on no need to generate volume scatter node and remove SSS node (it is desigend to get SSS effect in cycles)
it never work. (or you can show it as pic, with same duf, and current add on generate node. and adjust Volume scatter propertys)
if you believe your way work, (volume scatter node work to get SSS skin effect) you can show same thing as daz with t current shader node without any other shader color. (do not need to check SSS effect mix with diffuse or reflection, untill you confirm volume scatter work to get SSS with translucency node by one direction light source.)
please try it, and show me please as pic and show me real case, , actually SSS effect work with current volume scatter node.
All your test in the Topic, (I do not think it work at all), remain un necessary color for SSS test. and full env light source, so you just show kind of transulucency and volume absorption mix up color.
I already show pic which represent the SSS only use with blender SSS and translucency node.
(If user is smart enough they may try use 2 SSS shader and controll skin color with change RGB size I just show easy way at least it work better, for the test scene.)
And If I need translucency I only need to use translucency shader. about lip, I usually plan to use lip color, so subsurface need to be decreased, = I only need to adjust SSS mix factor, with use map.
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I summarize my view.
Edit actually I miss understand, yes volume SSS with translucency still work.
1_ Blender volume scatter with translucency skin (you need to use them ), never work to show real SSS effect. (with light direction gradually scatter and change color as scater RGB)2_ To get reasnable SSS effect, (for skin or any translucency mesh) for cycles, SSS shader is only answer to achive it. without it there is no real directinal SSS effect.3_ Volume scatter is mainly used to show smoke without other shader = to represent Air and dust scattter.
4_ Volume absorption often used to represent glass color. with refraction or glass shader. but seldom used with transulucency. (though it may work, if you really need to see absorption,, but if you can not get real SSS effect, I do not think I need to use volume shader for just show absorption, it take more cost for render )
Current problem (and why I hope it), there is no SSS effect, but attach un-useful shader, just merge color. I do not expect (never), iray volume auto conversion work perfect, but I do not think there is any meaning to attach Volume scatter but remove SSS shader (hide or un-connect) for BSDF option.But I know, some user think it is reasonable, (because they think blender volume scatter node do same thing iray Volume scatter with translucency shader), so I just hope add on offer non volume shader option, not attach any volume shader. but simply activate SSS shader.
after all I understand I need to adjust them I do not expect auto conversion work for all iray skin. it is impossible for me. (without you can count all options, it drastically change effects)
If you offer “no volume shader option” I do no need to remove all volume shader from all skin material with BSDF option. And I hope if there is blender user, actually use volume scatter node for skin with translucency with document .
I can not find any real case, which use the volume scatter node for skin material, to show SSS. The idea is interesting, but the important thing is actually work or not. (I suppose it not work). if current add on way work well , I suppose many blender user may try it too. (without daz figure), but as my thinking, it not work. (unfortunately)
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Then if someone (Thomas or Alessandro?) can show same effect, with use current add on volume scatter node, (and translucency without SSS node), with change property values for attached scene. I easy change my mind.
Because I suggested it long time ago, if we can use blender volume node to represent iray volume almost same.
but about the time I only plan to use for refraction shader. I asked about iray volume in iray dev forum. and understand, how daz convert iray MDL volume shader as user friendly, (change RGB probablility as transmiitted and scattered color).
It use log function to aproximate it. and daz use same logic.
but it not matter, because user can adjust it after import. the main problem is, actually blender volume scatter not work as same as iray volume scatter with translucency node. ( iray volume scatter node is used to represent skin SSS for all character)
how convert, iray volume transmitted or scatter distance as Volume density is different problem. and untill try to find formula or any aproscimation like simply invert etc) is only useful, when shader can show same sss effect. (as I said, we should use SSS shader, not volume scatter for cycles)
or I believe someone can do same thing, with my download file. I no need to test daz character al all. (because usually it come with many shader color. if we can confirm current way can show SSS effect correctly with light direction, it should work when we mix with different light source and shader color, textures. with any geometry size.
(we only need to adjust scale or each property)
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Engetudouiti, the volumetric skin is tested and works fine. But again it is targeted at realistic values. I’ll see if I can extend it to “extreme” values but I don’t see an urgency for this, since extreme values are not used by daz figures. See
#24#117Below it’s your ball with a little less extreme values. I used a 25 cm ball with 7.5 cm transmission and 2.5 cm scattering. You can see the volumetric skin starts to work. The more realistic values you use the better the skin is.
First iray then cycles. Scene included vol-2.duf.
p.s. Then again testing with a ball is too simplistic and not good. You may want to use real daz figures with strong backlights.
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- attached vol-2.duf.png
less extreme ball
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Alessandro please attach duf scene, if you say it work I only use simple geometry to check each shader how work. after I confrimed it work , I may try it with any shape and aother shder combination.
anyway I follow your setting like this = sphere scale = 25cm diameter and set scatter distance and absorb distance more small values.
, load in blender
I do not see any interesting graduation. it just scatter around even though there is only one directional light source + merged with translucency . about this test absorption no contribute = simply keep white)
Then so you say I use extreme value , but not at all. it is just test how scatter work.
About the scene I hope to scatter RGB reach the color of the geometry end. then set scatter radius as 25 cm. = when light through geometry, on the end it show the SSS color and it actually work with iray.
if I hope to see same color effect with more small scatter distance, I simply need to change RGB with the log curve. and why I set as 75cm transmission, I avoid to color absorbed when reach the opositte side. (so I can concentrate the scatter color how effect in daz and blender) . I already test with no absorption, (absorption color is white, = not absorb any RBG in geometry, then keep the base translucency color. if you use white colror as absorb color, the absorb distance have no meaning. but I change color a little yellow, so I set large size = it keep the color when absorbed to start to end side.
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And strong back light is just way to show clear light pass through and absorbed and return to front (and scatter) of the geometry Like ear etc . you can not check it from back light or front light angle. so I set camera paralell with directional light. if I turn around scene, the light souce used as back light.
you can easy check same ffect with Blender SSS shader only .. anyway if this setting not work, (you need to change light strength more hard or change parameter values drastcially, I think I have no merit to use high cost volume shader for skin.
I know, if I remove translucency shader, Volume scatter can show color scatter with light direction. it is purpose of the volume scatter node. (like air dust , smoke scatter with light source)
but all daz skin may need to mix use translucency node with large ratio 0.5 or 0.3 to get Volume absorption and volume SSS work.
As I said, with use translucency shader, I do not see real merit to use Blender Volume shader for skin. it simply cost high and not show color scatter as same as daz. but if it work with your typicall secene, or Genesis default materials (base), or Vicotria 7, I do not say we change default option. but I say, there should be option, no Volume shader for skin with BSDF mode.
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Sorry I attached the icon instead of the scene. Then below it is what I get in cycles with your last values in your picture above. Seems to work fine here. Test scene included vol-3.duf.
p.s. I get your results if I turn off the volume in cycles. Since this is a volumetric solution of course you need some volume rays, the more the better.
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ball examples with less extreme values
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Yes I know I need to set the volume setting . so I test with the value as 8
in this pic I set both as 5cm then control scatter color. (the ball is 25cm diameter) then now in blender
I pull up light path volume setting as high enough. (12 volume max boucnes and 128 sample for view port) but it is what I got in blender.but If I double both density value in blende (at current add on set as 20 and 20 density for 5cm f5cm ) to 40 and 40 etc,I can get more reasnable render finally.
I understand the reason, because you may do not use log curve to covnert as density. maybe you convert it as linea way for aproximation..(log curve daz use to convert probability to distance and color. so the more I set distance wide current conversion way may not circulate it correctly.
of course if I use it for human skin, I may not need such range variation. but I really do not know to only show 0.5cm to 5 cm range subsurface scatter, we may need to use such high cost volume shader as default.
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I can do it without any volume shader.
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Doubling the density you get the original solution in
#24#117Your solution without volumes is interesting but you need to test it with real daz figures to prove it works, and provide some formulas for automatic conversion. If you do so and it works fine this could replace
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I already render many daz character without any volume shader, I do not think there is perfect solution as auto adjust daz volume related color to cycles SSS nodes, , so I usually set manually but basically I only need to pick iray SSS color as subsurface RGB radius and add custom multipler . the multipler make adjust sss color effect, really easy, with use same daz sss scattered color.
because the cycles SSS node RGB radius means almost same as daz volume scatter length with SSS RGB. (The distance is radius, each scattered RGB component will reach) the only difficulity is actuall conversion unit to adjust RGB scale.
but no need to change RGB ratio Then I set multipler as 0.1 for most of human skin. when II need to see clear SSS I set it more large value. if it is large geometry I change it as 25 etc. it work as already shown with test scene. (25cm ball scatter etc) about any case, I just need to change the multipler value .
add on aleady set SSS node color as translucency color (filter or second skin base color) for Eevee, and it is corerct for me. (though I do not test with eevee at all about subsurface)
if the vendor set color non gray scale color for absorption,, and use clear distance, I need to adjust it. but usually I keep my character skin as blight, so almost no need volume absorption for skin. (they already have translucency or SSS color, then I do not hope the color absorbed, but just need to get scatter color return .
What I need is option, not generate volume shader with BSDF. at current add on always generate it ,and remove SSS node (not connect) for cycles render. it force user to use Volume SSS as default.
I can do adjust mat by my self when I need. I only hope to use Volume shader, for volumetric air ,dust smoke, or glass etc. basically avoid it.
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- changed title to Hope bsdf option which not generate any volume shader for skin
- marked as proposal
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I now understand what you ask for, I guess Thomas could provide an option to always force the sss skin. But in my opinion this doesn’t make much sense. I mean, the bsdf option is supposed to be an automatic conversion that the user doesn’t usually tweak, because it is complex to understand.
For easy materials the user should go for the principled option, and there you have the sss skin that you can tweak as you wish.
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buse SSS node without use volume for skin is not easy or simple etc,, ^^;
I never think, Volume SSS option render show better to render skin.
If you ask blender forum, or any place, do you plan to use volume shader for human skin, you may get most of them deny it. the reason is the merit which we use it is really small . even though it work to get same effect as SSS. we can do it without use Volume SSS at all.
on the other hand demerit is clear. the merit is (about this add on), you report conversion way then add on use it and it work with limit range and option.
I really do not think adjust SSS is difficult, so even though add on not auto conversion, but remain shader, user can easy do it, without manually remove all volume node, and re-connect in group node.
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At same time I change my view about the volume scatter with use translucency from your offer real case scene. I supposed it may not work well, but with your sample I understand it now. So I must edit it. and confirm I miss informed about it. I needed to test untill complain it not work.
I suppose there is case I may use it (translucency + volume) but for me it not for skin. and I really think case, what purpose I choose translucency with volume, I actually can not find best example. (at least I may mix use with glass or refract shader,, glass shader,not use diffuse + translucendy + volume. (maybe there is case, which must work better though)
But most of case,, I think SSS with translucency is good enough or double SSS , than volume with translucency.
Use principled bsdf option can not answer. because it is just for user who hope to use pincipled bsdf as main shader. I know the limit and advantage of the option.
Thomas offer generate custom group node, so if I customize many I may perfer bsdf option and customize with use custom group nodes. (then edit it)
If add on auto convert for water, or smoke or glass volume etc, I think it is welcom. because to make such absorption, or scatter, we need to use volume in cycles too. eg I may import SSS prop like milk or beans candy etc, can add on show correctly them with volume?
you say, 10cm SSS or 10cm absorption is not realistic, then it work with like 0.5cm to 3cm , yes it is good to represent human skin scatter and absorption. but for me I do not think these value is un-realistic as volume.
As I said, iray distance and transmitted color (scatterd color) need to represent as curve function. so aproximation at least need to use log or power function. even though I invert color for density and think it as probability, I think we need to use those function to get reasnable range. and it is more usable case to use volume shader.
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No you can’t convert the iray skin to sss. That’s why we use the volumetric skin instead. I agree it is not the proper way to to things but it is how iray works.
Then you can always tweak by hand a similar sss skin but that’s not a conversion.
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Yes I can tweak and I do it, it is same, there is option, which we not import displacement map, even though the clothing use it. I understand user need option.
It is same logic. I said, actually I can convert human skin with SSS only. only difference is the absorption color, but you already confrimed, it only work for real limitted range.then do you have real character material, which you think it must need to use volume absorption and volume sss to render it good and reasonable for cycles?
if you make same render with 20 minutes by use volume pass and clean with auto conversion. you can render same with 10 minutes, I do not have meaning to use it. Just need 3 minutes to customize SSS node RGB and color (eg 2 layer SSS)
Daz always use Volume scatter with Volume Absorption for G3 iray or G8 skin I believe.
but when render with cycles I need not use them. as same as some user may not need any displacement (you said so for clothing before) for clothing even though vendor use it.
eg when it not use refraction but only use translucency with volume, I suppose there is almost no case which we need to generate volume to get reasnable render with Cycles.
I learned I can use translucency with volume. it expand workflow, but I really think without we close up with scale and check thick geometry , how color with absorbed for the mesh, almost no case we need to use volume for render. but can use translucency and SSS only. other propertys are already generated with Custom BSDF nodes. so I need not remove them basically.
but Force to use Volume shader for render character skin without option is not good. I really do not know how many blender user use this add on, but I think the more the user have used blender, I do not think they like to use volume shader for human character render.
We need to concentrate 3 or 4 light and shadow for many geometry, then render scene. if you only need one character with nude and one HDRI light source, you may need not care, or with one back light, strongly, and low env light, Confirm how color will be absorbed in thick skin, with Scatter color (with mix use translucency filter ) . but actualy we seldom need such render. even though for face up character.
Add on use volume shader for skin as default it is OK. at same time it drastically change render time ,and effect noise. (high cost) with volume.
Without volume (but user need some adjustment with SSS node, (at current it is un-connected for cyclse) with BSDF is useful option for many user who render any character scenes. without she never touch blender material and not hope to check them, but just use auto conversion.
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We’re becoming repetitive here. Again, the volumetric skin is intended to provide an automatic conversion, that’s not possible with sss. It is not a good way to do skins but it is the iray way. And that’s why iray itself is so slow to render skins.
Then if the user doesn’t need an automatic conversion and prefers easy materials to tweak, the principled option is there with the sss skin.
That said of course Thomas may provide an option to always force the sss skin. Just personally I don’t think it makes much sense.
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Yes I think about these options, we can not agree.
but I hope Thomas if check this again. (Of course I think we need not decided how use cycles shader) but the manuall tell us how blender dev plan and make each shader for each prupose
the more read this, I think “use volume scatter wtth absorption” is not recommended work flow to render “skin”
(without the add on BSDF option, purpose is only show how you can convert iray shader as cycles logically correct)
I think it represent how I think, when I notice Thomas use volume shader for skin ( with translucency)
For rendering materials like skin or milk that require multiple scattering, subsurface scattering is more efficient and easier to control. Particularly the random walk method can accurately render such materials.
For materials such as clouds or smoke that do not have a well defined surface, volume rendering is required. These look best with many scattering bounces, but in practice one might have to limit the number of bounces to keep render times acceptable.
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My understanding is that SSS would work well for many skin materials, but the volumetric node is necessary for proper conversion of some modern skins, in particular Vic8. I’m open to adding new import options, as long as they don’t imply a major change in the current code. What can be done easily is to connect the Eevee path to the Cycles output as well, without volume.
Here is a comparison between Vic8 rendered in Cycles using the bsdf method and the Cycles and Eevee output. In the last picture I increased the Gamma node in the Daz Translucency group from gamma = 2.5 to gamma = 4. Note the difference in render time.
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Just for reference, here is Vic8 using translucency without volume, and with gamma correction before the translucency node. This clearly shows that translucency without volume is not an option, I think.
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Because you do not customize subsurface node correctly. but just use transulucency with keep current auto conversion.
So with cycles current add on only use translucency (diffuse) + Volume nodes.
But I think we should be (not all user but basically when make skin for cycles) use SSS node to represent skin subsurface effect and actually there is almost no meaning (at least for me) to use Volume shader to render skin.
the reason why I should avoid any volume shader for skin, I mentioned already. (high cost render time to real render)
I render characters with Cycles wtihout any Volume shader. it still take many render time as use final render
when there is many geometry with light sources then remove noise. If I hope to adjust SSS color, I can really easy do with any effect what I need. (eg sunburn or hard back light pic)
if I use volume shader for characer skin (adult) with clean up un-necessary noize I can not imagine.
I dare to say, the way to use Volume shader for skin is un-usuall workflow for cycles. even thouhg it work for auto conversion tool for iray shader. practically I think many user avoid it, if he have rendered character with cycles then up-load somewhere, or see it in HD TV
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And yes if add on offer option which not generate volume but keep to active blender SSS nodes in add on generate custom translucency group, then user can change SSS RGB values, color, as custom node property, there is no problem for my side.
At same time, to avoid complain who can not adjust by them-self those parameter to make usable skin ,with add on imported textures , I may recommend add info “adjust property your self please” or descirbe clear for add on option manuall, the option added for user “who do not use volume shader for skin” so add on can not auto convert, then user need to adjust SSS node, or mix use any node as you need or use default option please so you may see reasonable conversion.
If use volume absorption with Volume scatter becom major work flow for Blender user (who render character), I may apricate , this add on already do it. (but For me I simply think, it may not show any quarity difference as real render with most of situation and setting)
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To generate skin materials without volume even for cycles is an attractive idea, at least to cut down render times, but I don’t think it can be done in general, since it would mean that we map four colors in iray (base, translucency, SSS and transmitted) to two colors in cycles (diffuse and SSS). I experimented a little with renders in DS, but the effect of the SSS and transmitted colors is very unintuitive for me; it is very easy to end up with everything grey.
Still, for many characters just using the base and translucent colors gives a good-looking result, even if it is not exactly what you get in DS. Or at least you can get something that looks good if you tweak the translucent color in the material editor. To this end, I added a new material method which creates an SSS node both for cycles and eevee. So now there are three material methods:
- BSDF (Volume). This is the old method which uses translucency and volume for cycles, and SSS for eevee. Still best for some characters e.g. Victoria 8.
- BSDF (SSS). This uses SSS both for cycles and eevee, and is good for many characters.
- Principled.
In this way one can generate skin materials without volume which still maintain some relationship with the iray materials.
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Yes I thought if I might better to offer real case how I controll any skin color (include kind of volume transmitted color) only use blender default nodes. but the problem is after all it never means auto conversion.
I thought to request, if you can make current custom transulucency node which user easy mix translucency bsdf with SSS node as they need.
(at current when cycles, it never use SSS, when Eevee it never use translucency) but as custom node (if I think it user tweak node groups), I may prefer you offer input mix factor for the “translucency” group node.
I understand, why auto convert never work, when vendor use Chormatic with volume absorption without we use volume shader,
but as real case, you can mimic it with mix 2 SSS (it is usuall workflow for many productive skin for human) or simply mix SSS with diffuse translucency node. about this case translucency node used to controll skin color more dark or brown etc.
but I understand make it as auto conversion is really diffiucult. As practical render, we may never see such detail absorption color effect (gradually color absorbed) when it mix use with volume scatter, then I usually just mimic skin color with 2 SSS or with mix translucency node (then adjust the skin color globally).
But it never means, my way can auto convert iray volume skin. (but as practically, about almost all daz skin, I can make it with cycles. without voloume, only need it adjust those blender offer shader (SSS, translucency, diffuse) and mix use them with change color.
anayway this request never means, complain current default option. but I simply hope if you can offer more easy customize translucency node = (add mix input fuctor. then user can adjust mix translucency with SSS shader)
current translucency node is not so user friendly. because if I custom it, I need to expand group = it effect all material which may use same translucency node . it is key issue even though if add on keep to add volume shader for skin .
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I may customize (if I keep my custom shader) like this
So it can set separate color and property for SSS and translucency.
Then adjust the additional translucency effect with the mix factor.
the global custom node factor (fac) is weight of (full translucency + SSS), with adjust base color (diffuse) RGB, it is same how you made it.
the difference is you auto set factor (not connect) SSS for cycles, and not connect translucency for Eevee by auto in the group.
so as real usage, even though we try to use SSS, once we edit the group shader, it effect all material. if you offer those mix factor as input of custom node, user can easy adjust it.
I do not think there is critical and actuall case which I can not mimic daz volume skin (chromatic) without the user have profesisonal eye he can clear see volume absorption color and SSS color gradually change with the distance (it may never happen,, without you really close up Ear or any surface ,at same time we still see subsurface effect (gradually color change with lay so basically we seldom see actuall absorption color change only see it as almost global color with the distance value.
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Then of course If I hope to use one gorup node for both without change the Mixfactor, I customize it so.
(I may add 2 mix factor for cycles and eevee, then set value = use one nodes without change factor value everytime I change render, = just set 2 mix values separatelly as I need.
As you can see, it is really simple I just mix 2 shader which you have already used, but can adjustable each as user need without expand group shader. (and I can still set mix factor for Eevee and cycles separately)So if I just use add on default setting it should be
That means for cyclse only translucency used (with or without volume)
for Eevee it not use translucency but use SSS. then if user hope to use SSS (like me) for cycles, he can change the mix-factor(cycles) only.
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OK thanks I may see how it work.
At same time I confirm the Alessandro way which try to mimic daz volume shader with use cycles volume worked with practical range for skin. It is new thing for me (I suspected if it work, but I do not think to try it, because I avoid to use volume after all) so I said thanks. and apologize I informed as if it show wrong result.
the problem is even though daz vendor use default uber iray, there should be case, it not work correctly = after all I suppose user often need to adjust material many case. (actually there irecommend setting is really variation about the distance. some vendor try to use it with 10cm etc , and some vendor like to use mono , and may often use base color for translucency too.
Then as basic work flow, I thanks new option which not use volume shader for bsdf custom nodes is more naturall even though it not auto convert well ,and may not show same skin color. = user customize it by them self.
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Your ideas have been implemented in the translucency group in the last commit. Also, the special sss group is gone, there is only a single BSDF method again, and an option to exclude volume. Even Victoria 8, who looks terrible when imported without a volume node, can be easily fixed in the material editor by changing the translucency or sss colors from white to a light grey.
The default settings still use volume though, since we want to import something that looks as faithful as possible if we don’t fix anything.
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Please understand that I don’t have time to test this. So be sure to don’t mess up the previous “bsdf volume” and “principled sss” methods that were intended for auto-conversion.
Then my personal advice, as I already noted above, is that translucency + sss doesn’t make sense for skins. Because sss already provides its own translucency for thin volumes, while the translucency node is intended for surfaces, so it will not work fine in this case.
skin methods:
- translucency + volume
- sss alone
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Alessandro yes. it is usual thinking. But I said, it not harm any user work-flow . because when user hope to customize current skin which take count iray volume absorption color (but without volume shader for cycles) to mimic easy with keep current setting (only use SSS color with RGB radius of same node) .
If user can customize SSS color and radius setting by your self well it not need, so keep translucency factor as 0, , but use diffuse translucency as mix to represent volume absorption effect is easy, not bad idea for me. then about this option, I think the volume user may need not consider it. because, with volume shader user never tweak SSS and factor.
ideally (I customize for my own version), I prefer to use double SSS for productive skin shader to get middle and deep layer skin with use different RGB radius = it is key how the skin show as transmissive.
At same time, I may use the custom translucency node for any transmissive mesh, so when I need to get kind of translucency node without use SSS, I can still use this node for cycles and can easy exchange SSS or translucency.mode (and I do not avoid to mix them at all, I know how it work. SSS always count rgb radius, so even though SSS do same thing, it never means you can mix 2 diffusive color effect. by one SSS node.
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New option is for user who avoid to use volume shader for skin. (maybe most of blender user standard thinking. about this option , I do not expect it work as auto converter. rather than offer new option, which user can easy use SSS , translucency ,for add on imported mesh and material . without add new node or expand the group node. it is simply expansion of current translucency node .
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I close this topic as solved thanks Thomas.
At same time any improvement to auto set, SSS color and radius is welcom.
(as my thinking, auto convert is practically difficult though. RGB radius and Scatter color with length not use perfect same value. because Scatter color and length pick the middle point RGB which user intentionally pick up, then set the color. RGB radius use the length limit of each component = it may show how the skin transmissive too.
. so it need to change by curve function. then I do not know real math function which can convert to daz scatter rgb color of the distance to max length(Radius) of RGB scatter. I usually aproximate in my head, if I set RGB radius R as 0.1 = 10cm, how daz set scatter length (eg 1cm) point R value will be shown . To edit those value with test, inside of node group was annoying . now new version make things easy for me. (I can keep clean more)
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if you do not attach volume scatter but simply mix use translucency and SSS in your current group translucency node, I can generate it (of course I need to tweak them by my self)
Of course, it never means I represent perfect iray sss (volume) skin as auto conversion, but I do not think current way offer any SSS effect if you only use volume scatter with bsdf translucent node.
I may prefer, simply use tarnslucency + sss node (random wolk) (not volumetric scatter) node. and customize them.
but I hope, (because I clear understand it actually not show SSS color graduation = scatter with light direction correctly) you may add option ,which not generate volume node and use translucency and Subsurface node (as randomwalk setting) at laest for transulucency was used as iray.
about volume absorption may often use with glass shader, so even though I do not expect it work perfect, I can customize your generate node. but about translucency (diffusive) skin, I do not find merit to mix use with volume scatter.. So I hope you add option not generate volume for translucency skin.