Rotating freeze in new 3d cover display in detailed view of Launchbox
Issue #7747
open
Intro
I work as an Operation Engineer and have quite experience in troubleshooting. But have spend many hours to find a solution to this problem. i can only find few forum threads with people having similar issue.
to start off I tried to do a new installation of Launchbox in a different location and only import few rom files to keep the installation as simple as possible.
Issue
The issue is the new 3D cover feature has an issue when rotating using the mouse it stops frequently like each second only when using the mouse. When using a Xbox controller the issue don’t show, but the difference from this is the mouse rotate use a lot higher frame rate more like its unlocked. The issue shows both in fullscreen and GUI.
some of the things i tried out
- All combination of Nvidia Settings (disable G-sync. limit frame rate. change different OpenGL settings)
- change windows compatibility level (Disable DPI Scaling, use window 8, full screen optimization disabled)
- Change windows affinity and priority
- change mouse DPI speed and settings in windows
- change different performance settings to high performance (GPU scheduler, Nvidia high performance, CPU priority)
- stopped windows processes to a minimum
- tried many versions of launchbox to make sure it was not a known bug that needed to be addressed.
Computer specs
- Nvidia RTX 4090
- Intel 13900KF
- Ultrawide Alienware Oled 1440P*175hz G-sync ultimate
- 32GB / 5600mhz memory
Software
- Windows 11 Enterprise
- Launchbox 13.3
- Nvidia Driver 531.79
- Winver 10.0.22000.1817
ADDITIONAL FORUM THREAD REFERENCE:
https://forums.launchbox-app.com/topic/71077-3d-box-model-stutterring-rotation/
Comments (76)
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- attached Launchbox_3D_Model_Stutter.mkv
I tried to disable the controller but didn’t fix it. i have now attached a video so its easier to see what is going on
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here is a version using the controller. I see that the controller also have a small freeze but not in the same degree
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- changed status to open
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You may have seen my thread on the LB forums about this. I had the exact same problem for a few months.
Looking at your (first) video, the extent of my problem was worse than yours I think.
Just recently it has largely resolved - though unfortunately I don’t know what has fixed it. I say “largely” resolved, because it occasionally comes back for a limited time. This had led me to believe that it is probably software rather than hardware related. It’s maybe to do with other processes that are running - but I have a fairly specced PC (as do you) so this would seem unlikely. I’m continuing to investigate.Also, a related issue, as highlighted in your video - it’s very hard to rotate the box in a useful way using the mouse. it tends to flip vertically and it’s very hard to just rotate it horizontally. This really detracts from the experience. A horizontal rotation lock (i.e. allowing only horizontal rotation) would fix this and be an excellent addition. I’ll check that there is a separate request for this.
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I confirm the issue is only to be found in Desktop mode. Bigbox works fine
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Still having the same problem in Launchbox. Very occasionally the problem seems to disappear for short periods, but mainly it is there. Christian - why do you feel that this typically means that “something is taking longer than expected on the main thread to process”? And what is meant by main thread? Apologies for my ignorance!
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It looks like it is working now from version 13-7 Beta 5
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Nope, problem persists.
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Sadly the issue came back. What i also see is when it starts to stutter, i will loose mouse focus and stop rotating even though im still holding the mouse button down.
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I just checked it again - the problem persists in the current version of Launchbox, and isn’t there in BigBox. I presume that the latter is because the box is rotated with the keyboard or controller rather than the mouse, and rotates at a fixed rate rather than the “unlocked” rate you get with the mouse.
Would potential fixes for the problem in Launchbox perhaps include locking the rotation to the horizontal, or allowing rotation using the keyboard?
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Latest update/Beta of LB did not have any improvements to 3D Model so you should expect what you are reporting would still be present.
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yeah i also tried to bring up a fresh install for only use with storefronts instead of playnight frontend. but the first 10 minutes was fine rotation worked, and just after the first restart the issue was back. It is weird that not more a reporting on this issue. i really tried everything
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I also find it strange that not more are reporting the issue. I suppose those that primarily use BigBox mode wouldn’t be affected by it. There may also be some who use Launchbox but don’t use the 3D box feature, or some who just flip the box intermittently and haven’t noticed it. This would still leave a considerable user base though. Makes me wonder if the problem relates to some specific hardware or software issue.
I’m going to try with a standard wired mouse tonight to see what happens.
Danny - very interesting that it worked fine for the first 10 minutes of a fresh install. Did you restart Launchbox or your whole PC after the 10 minutes?
I really hope that this and a couple of other aspects of the 3D box feature are sorted. The internet is saturated with box art images but this feature has the potential to be endgame if implemented properly.
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Yes everything works fine with Bigbox no matter if i use mouse or controller. i also started having multiply instances of launchbox to split emulation and storefronts. both of my computers have Nvidia card and Intel CPU, so i could be hardware specific issue. one is 2060 and the other 4090
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Danny - are your multiple instances of Launchbox on separate computers? If so, do you have the rotating problem on both computers?
Also - when you say that it worked fine for the first 10 minutes after a fresh install; what changed after 10 minutes?
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Yes the problem is everywhere. i also just reinstalled windows 11 on one of the computers the issue was there from the beginning. really tried to limit what order i installed things at.
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What about my second question?
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after the 10 minutes the only thing was i have had a reboot and restarted launchbox. this installation was only setup for use with storefronts on my secondary computer with 2060. but for my 4090 i also had luck once to see it was working as long the instance of launchbox was open. next time it was back again. I have tried everything to see what could make it work again. maybe i will try to look deeper into the cache directory. on my 4090 it was a library with retro games i normally don’t use as much.
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So it worked for 10 minutes following a fresh Launchbox install, but then the problem manifested after a PC reboot? Is that behaviour definitely reproducible? I wonder what could explain that.
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I have not tried to do a new fresh install of windows to see if i could reproduce it working. there were to many variables to be sure what cause the issue to return that quickly tried to backtrack some of the changes that could have caused it to work. but nothing helped. I also just tried to but my mouse into BT mode and switch to cable. also tried change of DPI. still same issue. one thing i notice is it seems to work better if launchbox has just been started and you enter a library that has not been cached, but after short time it starts to get worse
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I tried to spend a lot of time today going with different sandbox and VMs. but it was not possible to get any good results. all VMs was not powerful enough or didnt use directx correct as the rotation was only 5-10 fps tried VMware Workstation 17.5, Virtual Box, Windows 11 Hyper-V and Sandboxie. still no progress.
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OK. We will keep working on it and hopefully one of the devs can help find a solution.
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Danny - are you able to test it with a different non-Nvidia graphics card?
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Phantom canyon is a NuC and unable to switch gpu. And only have nvidia.
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I just tested it with a wired (laser) mouse. The problem does persist, but the freezes seem a bit less frequent - maybe half as much. I switched back to my normal mouse, and the problem was as before.
I don’t know if this means that the problem is something to do with the mouse or the mouse movement in Launchbox, but it’s an interesting observation.
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I don't see this as it conclude enough. I have already tried 4 different mouse and 3 controllers the issue persist. We need a dev to be able to debug the 3d render behind and look for pooling interval that can lock up the render process
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Problem persists in the latest official release (13.9).
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I got it working today twice. I had a lot of STV games that had some wrong emulator and settings so i spend 1 hour to fix it. but could see after a while it suddenly fixed it self and start rotating correctly. i then tried to restart and it started out with stutter. again after about 20 min it start working. and when it works. no matter how fast i try to rotate the mouse will never lose focus. So i start to think about if it updates something in backup and it depend on how much memory you have where it caches something, and when this process is done it works normal. Some more testing will be need to confirm if this was pure luck
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Very interesting Danny. I have also noticed intermittent occasions when it will work for a short period. My knowledge of how the software works and the background processes isn’t good enough to deduce much further myself. @Christian hasn’t chipped in in a while; perhaps he can help.
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Also, look at this site: it achieves perfectly what we’re trying to do. And it allows full box spine images to be used! - https://michelmohr.me/3DBoxCollector/
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One issue/clue that I’ve noticed, when comparing the 3D box models in LB to those on the above site - not only do those on the above site rotate smoothly - they rotate horizontal when my mouse moves horizontal. In LB, I kind of have to move my house diagnonally to achieve horizontal box rotation. Also, there’s a “thirdscreen” Launchbox plugin which allows a rotating 3D box to be shown on another screen. The box auto-rates tnd there is no stuttering. Hope this helps.
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Another potential clue - when editing the 3D box type for a platform, the problem seems to be present for all model types except for “jewel case”. And, when rotating a jewel case in the game details pane or fullscreen, the problem isn’t there! This must be a big clue? UPDATE - all boxes seem to be rotating OK at the moment, so it might not be that. I’ll keep an eye.
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OK - today, on starting my PC up and installing the latest update of Launchbox, the problem is as bad as before (including with CD boxes). I will do some experimenting with Retroarch when I get a chance. Also, don’t know if it is related, but I have an intermittent problem where the game video will start to play normally in the game details pane, though then after a few seconds will suddenly shrink in size (see attached screenshot). Any updates @Danny Nilsson ?
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Another potential clue. Was working fine, then I restarted LB, and the problem has come back.
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Danny, just wondering if you’re still looking into this? Also - do you have multiple monitors?
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Yes i am still looking into it. but i am close to run out of clues. the devs need to come into this so we will be able to bring more debug logs, or try changes to the source code to rule out stuff.
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Agreed re. the devs. And what about the monitors?
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i have an Dell AW3423DW using 175hz and 4k Tv connected as well. I only see this issue to be a part of the database, rendering or related to launchbox, as we both have seen it work for a short while. that's also why it really limits to what is possible for us to to do as its not a matter of changing drivers or windows settings.
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I also have the Dell Ultrawide. And a second screen. We both have that i common. I wonder if that’s something to do with it! Seems a bit of a coincidence otherwise?
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as i have writing earlier i have tried this on TV, and from more then one computer. if it should be something i could be Windows 11 + Nvidia all my computers have nvidia and windows 11
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For what it’s worth, I’ve started a poll in the troubleshooting section of the forum to try and find out if there’s any other users that have a similar problem. Any idea how to alert this issue to the relevant devs?
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The devs are aware. One of the devs even commented on this ticket and your forum post and your discord mentions. If they cannot replicate the issue not much they can do and the scale of how many users it affects (which currently seems very small) would dictate how much time is spent on it. With a dev team of 2 things require careful triaging.
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Yes Christian commented on the day this post was initially made. That was 8 months ago and there have since been 39 messages in this thread with no further dev comment. That’s not a complaint, just I don’t know if the devs are looking into this. But anyway, I understand that the number of affected users does seem small. I’ve tried to get some more appreciation of the number affected via the forums. Hopefully the devs will get to looking into this.
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This ticket has a lot of useful data so thank you for providing. I know the devs have this ticket on follow.
As mentioned though, to date I have not seen from them they are able to replicate this. If they are able to replicate and then identify it is something in LB there will be an update. Constantly bumping and posting still will not change that piece of the puzzle. Not to mention if it is not affecting a larger amount of users dedicating time to it will likely take a back seat to higher priority development/troubleshooting.
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Yes, I understand. I’m not deliberately bumping this thread - I’m just adding whatever information that I can, along with Danny, to try and get to the bottom of things.
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If only there was some way to rotate the box in Launchbox without using the mouse. That would at least eliminate the mouse and associated drivers from the equation. Having read around, I still wonder if it is mouse-related. The box flips around vertically so much when I try and rotate it, I can’t imagine that this is intended behaviour.
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I also think that it should be possible to solve this even though a developer cannot reproduce it. As it is just a matter of guiding us in a direction for what to test or get a de build where we can try out different stuff.
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Another potentially useful bit of information - I attached an Apple Magic Trackpad to the PC and rotated the box using that - it is a fair bit smoother. The stutters/pauses still occur but 50-75% less frequently.
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I just verified your claim. by using a virtual mouse running unified remote from an android device. and it still has the same problem. Also you can do a windows setting called click lock, that locks the mouse button after few seconds just to make sure that the button is not released by some polling. but it releases it anyways.
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just tried some more stuff today, Create a new windows profile and run a new installation. still stutters, then i investigated in Chromium Embedded Framework that Launchbox uses. I am unsure what Graphical API its using, but i think its Web3D GL. and for that i tried some online sample projects with 3D to see if it was related to the GPU. but here everything works as expected, also with interactive samples.
I also tried to go with process hacker and activate all debug options in launchbox and monitor the CEF folders where it stores it files. but it does not provide enough information to get further here. only the developers can go deeper on this part.
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Intersting @Danny Nilsson, more interesting information. I have a (vague) clue again: today I deleted my Nintendo Game Boy platform and added it again. I’ve been creating some playlists, and just now have realised that box rotation is fine (for all platforms). So perhaps there is something around adding a new platform/adding new roms that makes it work? As part of this process I switched to table view, and also hid and then revealed the game details pane.
I will remain vigilant!
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I have experienced some difference that it could be some kind of platform specific. But again i tried a complete new portable installation and only added few games and still had the problem. At first i thought it could be XML corruptions to one of the data files. but i expect a new installation to work.
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And on starting up my computer again this morning, the problem is back. So it seems something temporarily fixed the problem yesterday, though that a restart brought it back.
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this is what we have been able to conclude for a long time. its some internal process or cache that don’t work in maybe specific hardware setups
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@RetroFrogg I wrote on the newest youtube video from ETA prime. and asked if Bitbucket was the correct place to report bugs, but they responded that launchbox forum was the best place, as Bitbucket is made for direct crash of launchbox and more critical errors. but we have tried the forums so don’t know what next action should be.
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Could you provide a link to the video?
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@RetroFrogg Sure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RlJ9PMF3Ao&lc=UgxSO0dF6A29vIuvYCN4AaABAg.A0vw_rZCA4QA0wCc4Xq_s0The Answer was
bitbucket is for crash reports. So if you keep getting crashes, post the report there. If it's more user related or specific to your build you should get help over on our community forums. https://forums.launchbox-app.com/ If you don't know what kind of issue it is, best to start on the forums. -
Thanks - I was looking at ETAPrime’s channel but that link is to Unbroken Software.
I made a post on the troubleshooting section of the forums some time ago. It has a number of responses, including from C-Beats (Christian):
https://forums.launchbox-app.com/topic/71077-3d-box-model-stutterring-rotation/
I don’t see your name there so maybe you could add a post and summarise your side.
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i have not been writing on the forum. as i was only keeping the updates on this post
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Maybe you could add a succinct summary of the things you’ve tried, and your thoughts, to my post on the forums? Hopefully the devs will be able to contribute.
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I think i have lost track of all the things i have tried. I didn’t expect this issue to exist for so long. and will also say that it my whole IT life this has been the most extreme issue that i have not been able to solve. Also because we both have seen it work at some times, and then returns to be bad. I normally get into just compatibility issues or when software just breaks with specific configs, but this problem goes out of the normal scope it seems
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Well, at least we have a record of much of it here in this thread. If you could summarise the main points from that onto the forum post then that would be helpful. The devs seem keen for us to continue that there rather than here.
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Don’t see any forum entry from you yet Danny?
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I have already posted. But don't use the same nick
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What’s your nick there?
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I want to separate my accounts, but you should already be aware what post i did, as not many know about what has been tested, it seems the forum post is to much focused on its related to mouse inputs and don’t have any input from devs, so we are still back to where we don’t know how to progress.
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You are getting input from devs. CBeats on the forum who responded in that thread is one of our developers.
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@Danny Nilsson - I’ve created a summary post on our forum thread. Have a read and correct me if I made any errors or if there are important omissions. Hopefully this will provide insights for the devs and allow some progress to be made. Shall we continue our endeavour on the forums, rather than here?
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Keep the conversation here. The data is already here and this ticket is easier to track than a forum thread. I know you said you were advised on Youtube to post on forum but this issue was already in ticket and is unique enough to be here.
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- edited description
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Well this is a little confusing - it seems that there’s inconsistent advice within the Launchbox team on where to progress these issues. Who manages the UnbrokenSoftwareLLC account on YouTube?
We can then keep the conversation here, as you suggest. Though it’s likely no bad thing to have an update on the forums, as that will be seen a different user base to here, potentially with fresh ideas.
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I put in a fair bit of work today summarising from both this thread and the Launchbox forums all the issues and things tried by different users. I put that summary on the forums, but if we are to continue the conversation here then I’ll paste the summary here also - please see below:
The problem: jerky or stuttering rotation of the 3D model box in Launchbox. By this I mean that when rotating the box with the mouse (either in the carousel or with the box maximised to fullscreen), the rotation pauses for about around 1 second per every 3 seconds of continual rotation. This problem also happens when panning the box with the mouse (dragging it up and down or side to side when zoomed in). Another problem which may be associated is that when rotating the box horizontally with the mouse, the box tends to rotate in the vertical plane also. It is extremely difficult to restrict the rotation to the horizontal plane only, requiring significant vertical movement of the mouse to compensate - you almost have to move the mouse diagonally. @kobaturtle noted this issue also earlier in this thread.
I did not find this problem in BigBox - however, in BigBox I rotate the box using the keyboard and so it rotates at a standard rate, rather than free rotation. @kobaturtle did however state that he noticed the same problem in BigBox, though @Mock said BigBox is fine, with mouse or controller (I didn't know you can use a mouse in BigBox). I also noticed that when using the Thirdscreen plugin in Launchbox (which can show the 3D box on a separate screen), manual rotation of the box there using the mouse gives the same issue. This plugin can also have the 3D box rotate automatically in the separate window - this rotation is smooth, though I noticed that when I move a window around on the other monitor, the same problem manifests - the automatic box rotation stutters. I feel like this might be a significant clue as it shows the problem appearing when the box is not directly being interfered with.
A number of users (as per this thread and the Bitbucket thread) are experiencing this problem. There have been discussions and a number of things tried:
- Mouse or controller issues
The majority of the troubleshooting efforts have focused on issues to do with the mouse. @kobaturtle noted that the problem seemed to be related to the mouse DPI, occuring more often with a faster DPI. He said that the problem happened when using his Razer mouse, though that when using an integrated trackpad on a keyboard, the problem wasn't there. He noted that reducing the polling rate in the Razer app led to smoother rotation; he reported that 125Hz polling was smooth, though that anything higher led to the problem. I changed the Windows "pointer speed" setting but this had no effect. I noted that my Razer mouse was using an average polling rate of 996Hz.
@C-Beats mentioned that higher polling rates could cause issues and also that the proper Razer software has to be installed. I reduced the polling rate in the Razer app to 125Hz - this did seem to affect the problem but only reduced it slightly. @C-Beats felt that the primary problem therefore likely wasn't the polling. @Mock tried using different mice (via bluetooth, USB-C and wireless adapter) as well as a virtual mouse via an Android app - but the problem remained. @C-Beats wondered if the issue might be related to how the mouse interacts with the "control on the device", and if one of the mouse events maybe isn't making it through due to a "priority call in the CPU/UI events". He noted that the 3D rotation feature uses WPF's (Windows Presentation Foundation) built-in 3D modelling, which where possible leverages DirectX. Another thing suggested is that the "use all controllers" Launchbox settings option is unchecked - I have made sure this is the case, and the problem persists. @Mock noted that the problem doesn't occur when using an Xbox controller, or at least that the problem is still there but to a lesser degree.
- Another hardware issue:
@kobaturtle and I both use a Razer mouse. However, as mentioned above a number of different mice have been tried so the problem doesn't seem specific to Razer. I also tried with a different standard optical wired mouse - the problem was again somewhat lessened, but otherwise remained. I tried an Apple Magic Trackpad - the problem is there, but it occurs around 50-75% less frequently - i.e. maybe every 6 seconds of rotation instead of every 3. I think that all those who have contributed to these threads are also using an Nvidia graphics card (I do, and so does @SymmeTrey, @Mock and @kobaturtle). So could this be a factor? @Mock has tried messing with the NVidia settings. Is Launchbox actually using hardware 3D for the 3D box - or could the problem be that it isn't?
- The intermittency of the problem:
one reason this problem has been difficult to diagnose is because it is seemingly intermittent. I would say that the problem is present for most of the time, though quite often I can rotate a 3D box and notice that the problem is not there. Others have noted this too. This has at times led me to make erroneous conclusions about the problem, thinking that a certain change has fixed the problem, only for it to come back later. I suppose it is likely that there is something happening to cause the problem each time - but no-one has been able to find anything reproducible. I've noticed this when working within Launchbox - editing games, adding/removing images etc. @Mock has noticed this as well. It seems that the problem can disappear, but that a restart of Launchbox can bring it back. I'm continuing to monitor this carefully, to see if there is anything in particular that makes the problem appear or disappear.
- Other things tried:
@Mock has spent many hours trying other things (as per a previous post; some beyond my understanding) including a fresh install of Launchbox, trying different versions of Launchbox, trying different monitors, trying different Windows compatibility levels, stopping Windows processes - but to no avail. He also wondered if it might be to do with the Launchbox cache, as he felt the problem was less when Launchbox had just been started (I have not noticed this). Could it be related to Launchbox's automated backups, or memory when caching/backing up? @Mock also tried a new Windows installation (no change), and tried out some online 3D modelling stuff (which worked fine).
Although I am fairly proficient with Windows, I don't work in IT nor do I have any knowledge of coding or how Windows works under the hood. I don't know how the 3D box is generated or how the rotation works (other than what is mentioned above).
Hopefully this summary will provide the devs with some new insights; @C-Beats / @faeran / @Jason Carr - any thoughts on this, or further troubleshooting options?
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Just to confirm that’s another user @Death Clonic affected with a similar issue.
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@RetroFrogg Very good work you have put into it. i have not had as much time lately to look further into the issue. as i am also running out of ideas to try.
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Another thought (from reading around): would it be possible to set/reduce the max frame rate for the 3D box model? I note that I can easily spin the box round at probably around 25 revolutions per second if I do a big mouse sweep. With other 3D box models, like the site pasted above, the box rotates in a slower more controlled manner.
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A stutter like this typically means something is taking longer than expected on the main thread to process. Do you have controllers enabled inside of LaunchBox? If so can you turn it off and see if that changes it? The “Use All Controllers” setting typically takes the longest to poll, but I’d be curious if you shut it off entirely does it fix it?