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extradoc / minute / pypy-sync-2005-09-01.txt

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pypy-sync developer meeting 1st September 
=============================================

Time & location: 1pm (30 minutes) at #pypy-sync 

Attendees::

         Samuele Pedroni, 
         Anders Lehmann,
         Ludovic Aubrien,
         Adrien Di Mascio, 
         Christian Tismer, 
         Armin Rigo, Carl Friedrich Bolz (later) 
         Holger Krekel (minutes/moderation)
         Eric van Riet Paap

Regular Topics 
====================

- activity reports (3 prepared lines of info). 
  All Attendees submitted activity reports (see `IRC-Log`_ 
  at the end and 'LAST/NEXT/BLOCKERS' entries in particular)

- resolve conflicts/blockers
  No conflicts were discovered.

Topics of the week
===================

Recap of discussed development areas until October 
-------------------------------------------------------

Everyone agreed that we want to deal with cleanups
and simplification refactorings until the Paris 
Sprint rather than optimizations.  Optimizations should only 
be tackled for "low hanging fruits" which is defined to have
a good ratio of LOCs against speedup.  For example, 
the recent specializations of function calls which lead
to a speed-up by 2-3 times were considered as having
a good ratio.  Moreover we looked in more detail 
at the following cleanup/refactoring issues: 

- bringing the compiler to good state.  Ludovic and 
  Adrien with help from Samuele and Arre will work
  on making the current 'astcompiler' the (translateable) 
  and compliant default compiler. 

- the translation driving (translate_pypy.py and friends) 

  Anders Lehmann is going to work on this and Armin has
  some refactored code and intends to help Anders along
  with Samuele. Eric will keep an eye on having LLVM 
  properly integrated. 
 
- improved test/reporting support.  Holger intends to 
  work on this. 


Paris Sprint announcement 
-----------------------------------------------

Ludovic is going to prepare a Paris Sprint announcement
tomorrow with help from Holger.  The meeting reconfirms 
the following sprint topics: 

    - threading and GC 
    - refactoring/translation features 
    - start on JIT/optimizations/stackless 

Preparation/Moderation Next pypy-sync meeting 
--------------------------------------------------

Armin, Anders L. and Christian are ready to prepare 
the next three pypy-sync meetings, respectively: 

    8th September: Armin
    15th September: Christian 
    22rd September: Anders L. 

We'll see who is going to do the next pypy-sync 
meetings after that.  

Closing 
------------------

Holger closes the meeting in time at 13:26pm.

.. _`IRC-log`: 

Here is the full IRC log:: 

    **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Aug 18 12:59:41 2005

    Sep 01 12:53:14 -->	You are now talking on #pypy-sync
    Sep 01 12:56:18 -->	pedronis (n=Samuele_@c-398b70d5.022-54-67626719.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #pypy-sync
    Sep 01 12:56:24 -->	stakkars (i=pyanan@i577B4CC6.versanet.de) has joined #pypy-sync
    Sep 01 13:02:03 <hpk>	i guess we start (hope arigo drops over soon)
    Sep 01 13:02:18 <hpk>	here is the agenda (as mailed yesterday):
    Sep 01 13:02:21 <hpk>	- activity reports (3 prepared lines of info).
    Sep 01 13:02:21 <hpk>	- resolve conflicts/blockers
    Sep 01 13:02:21 <hpk>	*Topics of the week*
    Sep 01 13:02:21 <hpk>	- Recap of discussed development areas until October
    Sep 01 13:02:21 <hpk>	- Paris Sprint announcement
    Sep 01 13:02:21 <hpk>	- Preparation/Moderation next pypy-sync meeting
    Sep 01 13:02:22 -->	ludal (n=ludal@logilab.net2.nerim.net) has joined #pypy-sync
    Sep 01 13:02:53 <hpk>	let's start with activity reports in this order:
    Sep 01 13:03:02 <hpk>	adim,aleale,ericvrp,hpk,ludal,pedronis,stakkars
    Sep 01 13:03:24 <adim>	LAST: none
    Sep 01 13:03:24 <adim>	NEXT: astcompiler
    Sep 01 13:03:24 <adim>	BLOCKERS: none
    Sep 01 13:03:28 <aleale>	This week: recover from Heidelberg, clean-up _codecs, planning of wp 9 and 10
    Sep 01 13:03:30 <stakkars>	how about reverse,mine is in the clipboad
    Sep 01 13:03:37 <aleale>	Next week: more cleanups, more planning, some compliancy issues
    Sep 01 13:03:45 <aleale>	Blockers : -
    Sep 01 13:03:52 <hpk>	LAST: heidelberg sprint, reporting, mailing
    Sep 01 13:03:52 <hpk>	NEXT: steps towards better test reporting and general refactoring
    Sep 01 13:03:52 <hpk>	BLOCKERS: None
    Sep 01 13:04:03 <ericvrp>	last: slotified llvm backend, bugfixes, added gc atomic calls to genc
    Sep 01 13:04:04 <ericvrp>	next: test experimental llvm escape analysis
    Sep 01 13:04:06 <ericvrp>	blockers: -
    Sep 01 13:04:30 <hpk>	stakkars: go ahead if you can't keep your clipboard content :)
    Sep 01 13:04:30 <pedronis>	LAST: sprint, small fixes, looked a bit at performance
    Sep 01 13:04:32 <pedronis>	NEXT: report planning with Armin, cleanups/help with compiler
    Sep 01 13:04:33 <pedronis>	BLOCKERS: how we want to distribute cleanups work/design
    Sep 01 13:04:55 <ludal>	Last week: sprint then none
    Sep 01 13:04:55 <ludal>	Next week: astcompiler
    Sep 01 13:04:55 <ludal>	blockers:  none
    Sep 01 13:05:18 <stakkars>	DONE: reimplemented list overallocation in low-level, removing it from listobject
    Sep 01 13:05:25 <stakkars>	NEXT: making dictionaries low-level, maybe looking into trusted refcounting.
    Sep 01 13:05:31 <stakkars>	BLOCK: maybe a missing interface between lowlevel types that prevents malicious use of fields
    Sep 01 13:06:07 <hpk>	ok, pedronis's blocker is a topic of this meeting
    Sep 01 13:06:19 <hpk>	and stakkars blocker should be discussed on #pypy i guess 
    Sep 01 13:06:40 <stakkars>	yes
    Sep 01 13:06:49 <hpk>	ok, first topic of the week: 
    Sep 01 13:06:54 <hpk>	Recap of discussed development areas until October
    Sep 01 13:07:14 <hpk>	we said that we want to focus on cleanups/refactoring until we start with otpm,ization wp06-XX efforts in october 
    Sep 01 13:07:29 <hpk>	the three areas i wrote down at last sprint: 
    Sep 01 13:07:33 <hpk>	compiler
    Sep 01 13:07:34 <hpk>	translation driving
    Sep 01 13:07:42 <hpk>	testing stuff
    Sep 01 13:07:51 <hpk>	is there anything that is missing or different opinions? 
    Sep 01 13:08:13 <aleale>	consolodating the use of _codecs
    Sep 01 13:08:28 <hpk>	in which sense? 
    Sep 01 13:08:41 <aleale>	The same algoritm of escaped strings is at least 33 places
    Sep 01 13:08:49 <aleale>	s/33/3
    Sep 01 13:09:18 <aleale>	there might be more
    Sep 01 13:09:20 <pedronis>	at least the string one needs to be at interp-level for bootstrapping reason
    Sep 01 13:09:47 <aleale>	ok lets defer it #pypy
    Sep 01 13:09:52 <hpk>	ok
    Sep 01 13:09:53 -->	arigo (n=arigo@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/arigo) has joined #pypy-sync
    Sep 01 13:10:12 <hpk>	ludal,adim: you are aware that arre and samuele are willing to help with astcompiler and the compiler efforts? 
    Sep 01 13:10:31 <ludal>	now yes :)
    Sep 01 13:10:49 <hpk>	ludal: it also is in the technical board minutes from heidelberg 
    Sep 01 13:11:00 <hpk>	jsut so you know
    Sep 01 13:11:14 <ludal>	it needs to become translatable, and probably we'll then have to repass the compliance tests
    Sep 01 13:11:28 <hpk>	stakkars: so simplifying/unifying our dict implementations also goes in the camp of refactoring/cleanups i guess
    Sep 01 13:11:45 <stakkars>	quick question: how clear is what we are doing when? Do we want to work sequentially or do some
    Sep 01 13:11:58 <stakkars>	optimization in parallel? I'm asking since this has happened already.
    Sep 01 13:12:15 <hpk>	i know, i am more in the camp of not tackling too much optimization
    Sep 01 13:12:32 <hpk>	but rather get our code base into better shape 
    Sep 01 13:13:04 <stakkars>	I think there are different opinions form what I see happending. We should be clear about this.
    Sep 01 13:13:07 <hpk>	it is open who is going to work on improving translate_pypy and friends 
    Sep 01 13:13:22 <pedronis>	the optimisation that was done had an enormous number of lines/efforts speed  up ratio
    Sep 01 13:13:37 <pedronis>	unless there is some other such very low hanging fruit
    Sep 01 13:13:50 <pedronis>	I think cleanups take precedence
    Sep 01 13:13:57 <hpk>	yes, i agree
    Sep 01 13:14:12 <pedronis>	othewise they risk to never to be done
    Sep 01 13:14:12 <stakkars>	I se, it was the "very much issue". Then I will trash my list overallocation.
    Sep 01 13:14:28 <hpk>	everyone else agrees with "only very good ratios of LoC/speed ups" are ok? 
    Sep 01 13:14:32 <ludal>	maybe looking at the possible optimization would help coming up with a more flexible design
    Sep 01 13:14:51 <pedronis>	stakkars: ?
    Sep 01 13:15:02 <pedronis>	trashing done work doesn't seem a good idea
    Sep 01 13:15:12 <stakkars>	at least we should do considerations. I found some corner cases on list allocation,
    Sep 01 13:15:23 <aleale>	I aggree to only addres low hanging fruits at this time
    Sep 01 13:15:30 <stakkars>	which need a bit of discussion, because optimization is hard wihtout knowledge of GC
    Sep 01 13:16:01 <hpk>	is anyone here ready to tackle translate_pypy cleanups? 
    Sep 01 13:16:02 <stakkars>	low-hanging fruit is ok. What do I do if the fruit wasn't that sleshy, after all? :-)
    Sep 01 13:16:08 <stakkars>	yes
    Sep 01 13:16:36 <aleale>	hpk: yes
    Sep 01 13:16:47 <arigo>	I started some time ago something about cleaning up Translator
    Sep 01 13:17:00 <arigo>	but I'm not sure I'd like to finish it right now (it looks like work)
    Sep 01 13:17:15 <hpk>	arigo: :-)
    Sep 01 13:17:22 <arigo>	for me, outlining the reports' content and starting on them is higher priority
    Sep 01 13:17:38 <stakkars>	on cleaning up dictionaries, this gives both speed and nicer source.Postpone as well?
    Sep 01 13:17:39 <aleale>	makes sense
    Sep 01 13:17:55 <hpk>	right, ok. then aleale can give it a go and whoever wants to join.
    Sep 01 13:18:12 <pedronis>	I can help
    Sep 01 13:18:17 <hpk>	great
    Sep 01 13:18:20 <hpk>	i think we can close this topic now (there also is and should be discussion on pypy-dev regarding some of the topics)
    Sep 01 13:18:26 <pedronis>	but it has less priority than reports and compiler
    Sep 01 13:18:27 <ericvrp>	I will keep checking if it's still llvm compatible
    Sep 01 13:18:34 <hpk>	pedronis: sure
    Sep 01 13:18:35 <stakkars>	ok, I misunderstood the sudden massive speedup-checkins, it was just a big fruit, right?
    Sep 01 13:18:51 <hpk>	yes, a factor of 2-3 speedup in pystones
    Sep 01 13:19:03 <pedronis>	and richards
    Sep 01 13:19:06 <stakkars>	(and I got just 5 percent)
    Sep 01 13:19:11 <arigo>	pedronis: what do you mean by compiler ?
    Sep 01 13:19:27 <hpk>	arigo: we discussed this earlier, the translateable astcompiler 
    Sep 01 13:19:28 <pedronis>	helping logilab making it translatable
    Sep 01 13:19:30 <ludal>	translate it
    Sep 01 13:19:34 <arigo>	hpk: ah, sorry of course
    Sep 01 13:19:40 <hpk>	please next topic: Paris Sprint announcement
    Sep 01 13:20:04 <hpk>	adim, ludal: do you intend to draft up an annoucnement in extradoc/sprintinfo/paris-annoucnement.txt? 
    Sep 01 13:20:20 <ludal>	yes, I'll do that tomorrow
    Sep 01 13:20:35 <hpk>	ok, i can help you a bit. 
    Sep 01 13:20:44 <hpk>	do we still agree on the topics? 
    Sep 01 13:20:50 <hpk>	    - threading and GC
    Sep 01 13:20:50 <hpk>	    - refactoring/translation features
    Sep 01 13:20:50 <hpk>	    - start discussing/heading for JIT/optimizations/stackless
    Sep 01 13:20:53 <ludal>	thanks
    Sep 01 13:21:26 <arigo>	yes
    Sep 01 13:21:31 <aleale>	yes
    Sep 01 13:21:40 <adim>	seems good to me
    Sep 01 13:21:54 <ludal>	yes
    Sep 01 13:22:16 <arigo>	"finish up reports in a hurry" shouldn't probably be announced :-)
    Sep 01 13:22:24 <pedronis>	:)
    Sep 01 13:22:37 <hpk>	one more thing i'd like to consider (but it needn't go into the announcement) is the issue of easing porting of C-modules for developers new to pypy
    Sep 01 13:22:54 <pedronis>	yes, also refactoring Translator is probably related what we want to do in phase2
    Sep 01 13:23:01 <pedronis>	so maybe it can partly wait for paris
    Sep 01 13:23:01 <hpk>	yes
    Sep 01 13:23:28 <hpk>	ok, that's it for the paris sprint/annoucnement for now, i guess.
    Sep 01 13:23:42 <hpk>	last topic: Preparation/Moderation Next pypy-sync meeting
    Sep 01 13:24:11 -->	cfbolz (n=carlson@hdlb-d9b945fb.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined #pypy-sync
    Sep 01 13:24:14 <hpk>	who would like to do it the next time? (Can be multiple people so we can rotate a bit)
    Sep 01 13:24:18 <hpk>	cfbolz: good morning
    Sep 01 13:24:26 <arigo>	I could do it
    Sep 01 13:24:28 <cfbolz>	sorry
    Sep 01 13:24:35 <stakkars>	i can do it.
    Sep 01 13:24:42 <aleale>	I'd like to volonteer
    Sep 01 13:25:03 <stakkars>	ok, let's pick a random number.
    Sep 01 13:25:08 <ericvrp>	42
    Sep 01 13:25:17 <stakkars>	49. mine is higher.
    Sep 01 13:25:29 <hpk>	great, then maybe just arigo, stakkars, aleale in that order?
    Sep 01 13:25:40 <hpk>	let me just note that so far i had to come up with topics for the meetings myself
    Sep 01 13:25:46 <stakkars>	wise man spoke :-)
    Sep 01 13:26:39 <stakkars>	4 minutes left, is there some opne point?
    Sep 01 13:26:42 <arigo>	ok, then I will do the next week one
    Sep 01 13:27:00 <hpk>	and it would probably help the new moderators if at least sometimes topics are pushed to them
    Sep 01 13:27:10 <arigo>	indeed :-)
    Sep 01 13:27:28 <hpk>	but part of the game is identifying what would benefit from pypy-sync attention and decisions
    Sep 01 13:27:37 <hpk>	:-)
    Sep 01 13:27:52 <hpk>	ok, then let me close my last pypy-sync meeting for a few weeks :-) 
    Sep 01 13:28:06 *	arigo claps
    Sep 01 13:28:08 <cfbolz>	should I post my lines?
    Sep 01 13:28:17 <stakkars>	do it,not ask
    Sep 01 13:28:19 <cfbolz>	LAST: worked on/finished summer of code project on GC
    Sep 01 13:28:19 <cfbolz>	NEXT: PyPy unrelated stuff (another exam)
    Sep 01 13:28:19 <cfbolz>	BLOCKER: some sort of strange behaviour under python 2.3
    Sep 01 13:28:33 <hpk>	cfbolz: congrats, btw! 
    Sep 01 13:28:59 <stakkars>	cfbolz: please tell about the behavior on #pypy
    Sep 01 13:29:04 <cfbolz>	:-)
    Sep 01 13:29:35 <cfbolz>	ok
    Sep 01 13:29:39 <--	cfbolz (n=carlson@hdlb-d9b945fb.pool.mediaWays.net) has left #pypy-sync ("Verlassend")