extradoc / minute / pypy-sync-2005-10-27.txt

pypy-sync developer meeting 27th October

Time & location: 1pm (30 minutes) at #pypy-sync


         Samuele Pedroni
         Armin Rigo (left early)
         Holger Krekel 
         Eric van Riet Paap
         Michael Hudson
         Carl Friedrich Bolz
         Bert Freudenberg 

Regular Topics 

- activity reports (3 prepared lines of info).
  All Attendees submitted activity reports (see `IRC-Log`_
  at the end and 'LAST/NEXT/BLOCKERS' entries in particular)

- resolve conflicts/blockers: No blockers

Topics of the week

"this week on #pypy"

Michael volunteered to write a short "This week in pypy-land" text every week
(which would include the events in #pypy and other interesting stuff). This
would make e.g. navigating the #pypy-logs a lot easier but is also quite a lot
of work. Holger suggested that we should have a file in svn where everybody can
insert paragraphs. This was considered a good ideal. Michael plans to summarize
everything at the end of the week and send mails to pypy-dev.

new release

Samuele brought up the issue of another making another release (0.8.0) soon
that highlights the translatable parser/compiler.  He wants this because some
of the reportwriting he has to do is blocked by the fact that this release did
not happen yet.  The features of the release would be working/translatable
astcompiler, translatable thunk object space, cleaned up translate_pypy and a
bit more speed.

The idea was to try make a small release that should not take too much work.
One of the biggest problems is that Holger is not really avaiable next week
which is when Samuele planned to do the release. Holger did a lot of the
infrastructure work for the last releases. Samuele noted that this release is a
bit different since we don't have new features that we want to rush in in the
last minute. It was decided that we should try to make a release friday next
week (November 4th, 2005), making a release branch on October, 28th. Over the
weekend the compliancy tests will be run to see whether compliancy got worse.
If this is the case we might have to reconsider.  On Monday (October, 31th)
there will be a planning meeting.  All in all there don't seem to be that many
people avaiable for the release: Samuele, Michael, Anders L., Arre(?), Carl
Friedrich (maybe a little), Christian (a bit).

gothenburg sprint topics

topic deferred to next pypy-sync.

.. _`IRC-Log`:

Complete IRC log

complete log::

    **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Oct 27 12:58:02 2005

    Oct 27 12:58:02 *	Now talking on #pypy-sync
    Oct 27 12:58:18 *	hpk ( has joined #pypy-sync
    Oct 27 13:00:29 cfbolz	hi all!
    Oct 27 13:00:34 hpk	hi!
    Oct 27 13:00:38 cfbolz	it's 1 on my clock, so shall we start?
    Oct 27 13:00:55 hpk	fine for me. let's see if some others are awake :) 
    Oct 27 13:01:02 cfbolz	:-)
    Oct 27 13:01:02 pedronis	hi, yes
    Oct 27 13:01:05 mwh	hello
    Oct 27 13:01:06 arigo	hi!
    Oct 27 13:01:36 cfbolz	ok, everybody post their activity reports!
    Oct 27 13:01:39 ericvrp	hi~
    Oct 27 13:01:48 arigo	LAST: holidays + reports + a stackless RPython interface
    Oct 27 13:01:48 arigo	NEXT: holidays + finish report draft-dynamic-etc + choose new laptop
    Oct 27 13:01:48 arigo	BLOCKERS: -
    Oct 27 13:01:58 ericvrp	Last: some genjs, mostly non-PyPy
    Oct 27 13:01:59 ericvrp	Next: dito
    Oct 27 13:02:01 ericvrp	Blockers: -
    Oct 27 13:02:09 cfbolz	LAST: statistic gathering, pypy unrelated
    Oct 27 13:02:09 cfbolz	NEXT: report
    Oct 27 13:02:09 cfbolz	BLOCKERS: none
    Oct 27 13:02:27 hpk	LAST: eu dissemniation/talk planning, codespeak admin.  NEXT: pycon proposals, finalizing dissemination planning.  BLOCKERS: somewhat non-permanent internet connection
    Oct 27 13:02:46 pedronis	LAST: some release prep, D04.4, looked at other reports, some other rep writing,rtyper level opts/code reductions
    Oct 27 13:02:48 pedronis	NEXT: release, finish D04.4, help with other reports
    Oct 27 13:02:49 pedronis	BLOCKERS: -
    Oct 27 13:03:37 mwh	last week: got a job!  making and using refactoring tools
    Oct 27 13:03:37 mwh	next week: more of same
    Oct 27 13:03:37 mwh	blockers: -
    Oct 27 13:04:14 mwh	oh, and pycon proposals for next week
    Oct 27 13:04:17 *	aleale ( has joined #pypy-sync
    Oct 27 13:04:20 hpk	bertf: ? 
    Oct 27 13:04:39 cfbolz	aleale: your activity report?
    Oct 27 13:04:42 aleale	PREV: Writing report
    Oct 27 13:04:54 aleale	NEXT: WP9
    Oct 27 13:05:00 aleale	BLockers:-
    Oct 27 13:05:11 bertf	LAST: following svn activities NEXT: report BLOCKERS: -
    Oct 27 13:05:31 cfbolz	ok, let's proceed then to the regular topics
    Oct 27 13:05:36 cfbolz	there don't seem to be blockers
    Oct 27 13:05:39 cfbolz	"this week on #pypy"
    Oct 27 13:05:39 cfbolz	--------------------------
    Oct 27 13:06:05 cfbolz	michael volunteered to write something weekly about the ongoings of #pypy but would like to be notified about interesting stuff
    Oct 27 13:06:38 hpk	probably makes sense to have a weekly svn-commit file where people can insert paras? 
    Oct 27 13:07:01 mwh	that makes sense so long as people actually do it :)
    Oct 27 13:07:10 cfbolz	indeed. and I fear they don't :-)
    Oct 27 13:07:21 hpk	well, all things need a bit of time to establish 
    Oct 27 13:07:25 mwh	but yes, let's keep an activity log in svn
    Oct 27 13:07:37 hpk	but offering a structure makes it easier and point people to it 
    Oct 27 13:07:43 mwh	and basically i'll summarize it and send it to pypy-dev each week
    Oct 27 13:07:46 hpk	should theey complain that a particular topic wasn't included 
    Oct 27 13:07:56 cfbolz	makes sense
    Oct 27 13:08:00 mwh	i'll probably mostly maintain it as well to start with
    Oct 27 13:08:42 *	stakkars ( has joined #pypy-sync
    Oct 27 13:08:43 mwh	extradoc/weekly or something?
    Oct 27 13:08:51 cfbolz	sounds good!
    Oct 27 13:08:54 hpk	mwh: yes, irc-weekly maybe 
    Oct 27 13:09:06 cfbolz	does that approach make sense for everybody?
    Oct 27 13:09:13 aleale	yes
    Oct 27 13:09:14 arigo	yes
    Oct 27 13:09:14 hpk	yip
    Oct 27 13:09:32 pedronis	ok
    Oct 27 13:09:37 mwh	hpk: i was hoping to include more than what happens in irc..
    Oct 27 13:09:46 ericvrp	yeys
    Oct 27 13:09:46 *	arigo must leave, sorry
    Oct 27 13:09:48 mwh	though of course, that's currently the hardest thing to find
    Oct 27 13:09:52 hpk	mwh: ok, also ping me sometime so we make this more visible on the web page 
    Oct 27 13:09:58 *	arigo has quit (Remote closed the connection)
    Oct 27 13:10:04 mwh	but, yes, agreed for now, let's move on
    Oct 27 13:10:16 cfbolz	good!
    Oct 27 13:10:16 cfbolz	"this week on #pypy"
    Oct 27 13:10:16 cfbolz	--------------------------
    Oct 27 13:10:20 cfbolz	sorry :-)
    Oct 27 13:10:30 cfbolz	new release
    Oct 27 13:10:30 cfbolz	-------------------------- 
    Oct 27 13:10:30 stakkars	should I post?
    Oct 27 13:10:35 cfbolz	stakkars: ok
    Oct 27 13:11:03 stakkars	DONE: benchmarks, some stackless optimizations
    Oct 27 13:11:22 stakkars	plus some windows stuff
    Oct 27 13:11:24 stakkars	NEXT: reviews, 2 weeks Beverly Hills
    Oct 27 13:11:35 stakkars	BLOCK: None (except for my mother's cancer)
    Oct 27 13:11:53 cfbolz	sorry for that
    Oct 27 13:12:05 stakkars	:( thx
    Oct 27 13:12:11 cfbolz	ok, on to the release!
    Oct 27 13:12:28 pedronis	I have started updating getting started
    Oct 27 13:12:45 pedronis	I can write the release announcement
    Oct 27 13:13:07 pedronis	the question is what to highlight, and when to freeze
    Oct 27 13:13:21 cfbolz	and how much work should go in
    Oct 27 13:13:24 *	hpk still needs to catch up regarding the release planning, apparently
    Oct 27 13:13:42 cfbolz	hpk: no, it's new to everybody :-)
    Oct 27 13:13:49 hpk	ah ok. 
    Oct 27 13:14:07 cfbolz	basically this is the first big mention since paris
    Oct 27 13:14:10 mwh	the highlight of this release is the working/translatable astcompiler?
    Oct 27 13:14:12 aleale	I think speed and compiler are the highlights
    Oct 27 13:14:19 hpk	ok, so the idea is to do a 0.8 release and main features are - compiler integration and more speed? 
    Oct 27 13:14:22 pedronis	well we have add quiite a few improvement since 0.7
    Oct 27 13:14:39 stakkars	include stackless?
    Oct 27 13:14:41 pedronis	but it also driven by EU things
    Oct 27 13:14:43 cfbolz	hpk: yes, and better translate_pypy, translatable thunks
    Oct 27 13:14:49 hpk	cfbolz: yip 
    Oct 27 13:14:57 mwh	how well does "a flexible parser/compiler implementation" describe our situation?
    Oct 27 13:15:05 mwh	stakkars: that's phase 2 isn't it? :)
    Oct 27 13:15:09 pedronis	stakkars: that's a question, because stackless is not user visible
    Oct 27 13:15:22 mwh	and yes, no app level interface yet afaik
    Oct 27 13:15:23 hpk	i'd like to keep the release small and mean 
    Oct 27 13:15:27 hpk	also to not incur too much work 
    Oct 27 13:15:30 cfbolz	hpk: I agree
    Oct 27 13:15:41 aleale	hpk: I agree
    Oct 27 13:15:42 pedronis	hpk: the plan is to package what we have
    Oct 27 13:15:43 stakkars	it has no interface yet but by not crashing. But do we announce it as part of the release?
    Oct 27 13:15:46 mwh	i agree
    Oct 27 13:15:58 *	hpk wouldn't include stackless at this point 
    Oct 27 13:16:06 mwh	what work needs to be done?  who should do it?
    Oct 27 13:16:06 pedronis	we may need to disable some socket stuff
    Oct 27 13:16:07 hpk	but rather go for a 0.9 later in december (x-mas release) or so 
    Oct 27 13:16:13 pedronis	which is very unstable
    Oct 27 13:16:27 pedronis	I mean failing tests
    Oct 27 13:16:30 mwh	i'm not amazingly busy, but need to be told what to do :)
    Oct 27 13:16:52 pedronis	mwh do you want to do more refactoring 
    Oct 27 13:16:54 hpk	i guess i will need to be around during the release time so i'd actually first like to get an idea of the timing 
    Oct 27 13:16:57 mwh	copy dist to release/0.8.x, disable socket on the branch, write an announce,ent?
    Oct 27 13:16:59 *	ericvrp would like to know when 0.8 is scheduled
    Oct 27 13:17:01 mwh	pedronis: yes
    Oct 27 13:17:16 pedronis	well, I think it should happen next week
    Oct 27 13:17:22 hpk	to state things upfront from my side: basically only 11th-15th if somewhat feasilbe as a release time, if i should be of much help. 
    Oct 27 13:17:39 mwh	it would be good to get it done before then, imho
    Oct 27 13:17:44 hpk	pedronis: next week? uh.
    Oct 27 13:17:50 pedronis	hpk: yes
    Oct 27 13:18:06 cfbolz	how much is holger neede?
    Oct 27 13:18:10 cfbolz	needed
    Oct 27 13:18:42 cfbolz	or is everybody fine with 11-15?
    Oct 27 13:18:49 stakkars	maybe he can fork?
    Oct 27 13:18:50 hpk	why the rush? last times when i pushed for releases, we had like 3-
    Oct 27 13:18:50 hpk	i basically did much of the ground work the last times 
    Oct 27 13:19:16 *	hpk thinks he _may_ be able to make it next week, is still in marocco though, but is a bit un-happy about the sudden rush 
    Oct 27 13:19:16 pedronis	cfbolz: I need the release done
    Oct 27 13:19:26 pedronis	to finish the report
    Oct 27 13:19:36 cfbolz	pedronis: I see
    Oct 27 13:19:57 pedronis	and 11-15 I'm holiday myself (finally)
    Oct 27 13:20:01 stakkars	I'm only very little available until the 15th,at least.
    Oct 27 13:20:04 cfbolz	oh
    Oct 27 13:20:27 cfbolz	so basically next week michael, samuele and (maybe) me would be there. of the people here today
    Oct 27 13:20:32 cfbolz	aleale: what are your plans?
    Oct 27 13:20:42 mwh	how much work is a release?
    Oct 27 13:20:47 aleale	I am available
    Oct 27 13:20:57 mwh	if the answer is "not much" then ...
    Oct 27 13:21:00 cfbolz	mwh: depends on whether you want to look at compliancy?
    Oct 27 13:21:00 pedronis	hpk: it seems the part that needs you is uploading? or can that be done by someone else?
    Oct 27 13:21:10 aleale	mostly next week - less the week after
    Oct 27 13:21:18 hpk	mwh: it used to be quite a lot (some full 5 days from my side in the very last time) 
    Oct 27 13:21:29 hpk	mwh: but i think it could be less now, i prepared some scripts and such by now 
    Oct 27 13:21:53 hpk	pedronis: not quite, there are some details, have to think about it.  but maybe you could all do it. 
    Oct 27 13:22:14 pedronis	hpk:  I also think is good think that releases don't depend on a single person
    Oct 27 13:22:21 hpk	pedronis: of course !
    Oct 27 13:22:24 cfbolz	:-)
    Oct 27 13:22:29 hpk	pedronis: i am pushing for that for a long time, mind you
    Oct 27 13:22:36 cfbolz	good training opportunity then
    Oct 27 13:22:45 stakkars	ping (checking if my GPRS modem is still online,train is moving)
    Oct 27 13:22:49 aleale	could we do a dry run in the weekend ?
    Oct 27 13:23:04 hpk	pedronis: and so far, my tries to get some ahead-planning for releases have met skepticism, haven't they? 
    Oct 27 13:23:06 mwh	as in two days time?
    Oct 27 13:23:13 mwh	i am away climbing
    Oct 27 13:23:31 pedronis	mwh: when can we freeze
    Oct 27 13:23:46 pedronis	it seems it depends when you are happy with refactorings you are doing?
    Oct 27 13:23:49 stakkars	I can help on the weekend and Monday
    Oct 27 13:23:57 cfbolz	so do we try to get the release out, say, friday next week?
    Oct 27 13:24:00 mwh	pedronis: i can easily just stop for a few days
    Oct 27 13:24:18 pedronis	I would freeze tomorrow then and run the tests
    Oct 27 13:24:31 cfbolz	ok, so very fast :-)
    Oct 27 13:24:44 mwh	fine with me
    Oct 27 13:24:49 pedronis	well running the compliancy tests take some time
    Oct 27 13:25:07 pedronis	and we are in a situation when we can package what we have
    Oct 27 13:25:08 stakkars	why disable socket,toomuch missing or too many bugs?
    Oct 27 13:25:17 pedronis	failing tests
    Oct 27 13:25:21 pedronis	some even with segfaults
    Oct 27 13:25:22 cfbolz	segfaults
    Oct 27 13:25:31 stakkars	mupf
    Oct 27 13:25:41 mwh	platform dependent crap too
    Oct 27 13:25:41 pedronis	unless someone has a lot of time to put in that
    Oct 27 13:25:47 pedronis	is safer to disable
    Oct 27 13:25:54 cfbolz	I would say we disable
    Oct 27 13:25:56 mwh	pedronis: +1 to disable fro 0.8
    Oct 27 13:26:00 pedronis	is not really a release highlight and is far from finished
    Oct 27 13:26:04 *	hpk is not too happy about being mostly ignored 
    Oct 27 13:26:20 stakkars	?
    Oct 27 13:27:17 pedronis	hpk: our previous releases and always been charaterize by having to finish features at the last minute
    Oct 27 13:27:23 pedronis	s/and/have
    Oct 27 13:27:57 *	mwh points at the time
    Oct 27 13:27:58 stakkars	not so tjhis time if we infact throw out what isn't finished.
    Oct 27 13:28:00 *	ericvrp proposes to disable translator/js too
    Oct 27 13:28:20 cfbolz	hpk: you still there?
    Oct 27 13:28:23 hpk	yes
    Oct 27 13:28:30 pedronis	erivrp: yes, I tried to install js and lots of tests indeed fail
    Oct 27 13:28:44 *	hpk is thinking about if/how it all fits together.  
    Oct 27 13:29:07 cfbolz	not at all :-(
    Oct 27 13:29:14 stakkars	what about llvm
    Oct 27 13:29:18 hpk	pedronis: the thing is, for example, that there is currently some migration regarding the codespeak backup underway 
    Oct 27 13:29:29 stakkars	part of the release? disable the opaque stuff or finish?
    Oct 27 13:29:48 cfbolz	could we decide how to decide? some more decision at 2 on #pypy?
    Oct 27 13:29:49 ericvrp	stakkars: pypy-llvm works
    Oct 27 13:29:50 hpk	pedronis: i suggest to _try_ going for a friday release next week 
    Oct 27 13:30:09 pedronis	hpk: that's ok
    Oct 27 13:30:14 stakkars	ericvrp: already? whow!
    Oct 27 13:30:15 hpk	pedronis: but merlinux also has another deadline on that very day :( (and the consortium meeting is there as well) 
    Oct 27 13:30:16 cfbolz	ok, everybody fine with that?
    Oct 27 13:30:27 aleale	ok
    Oct 27 13:30:32 stakkars	ok
    Oct 27 13:30:34 ericvrp	ok
    Oct 27 13:30:39 mwh	ok
    Oct 27 13:30:46 pedronis	hpk: we should try to have a finalized tag before then
    Oct 27 13:30:57 pedronis	such that is a matter of pushing it out
    Oct 27 13:31:04 hpk	pedronis: of course.  a ctually i sugest a planning meeting on monday or so 
    Oct 27 13:31:19 hpk	pedronis: trust me, it is or at least used to be quite a lot of work to get a release out 
    Oct 27 13:31:26 pedronis	hpk: makes sense
    Oct 27 13:31:38 pedronis	I still plan to make a branch tomorrow
    Oct 27 13:31:42 cfbolz	ok, let's close the meeting now
    Oct 27 13:31:45 *	hpk is off to another meeting 
    Oct 27 13:31:46 pedronis	so that on monday we can see
    Oct 27 13:31:50 cfbolz	see you all later on #pypy!
    Oct 27 13:31:52 cfbolz	bye!
    Oct 27 13:31:57 aleale	bye
    Oct 27 13:32:04 pedronis	whether we have serious compliancy regressions
    Oct 27 13:32:11 *	aleale ( has left #pypy-sync
    Oct 27 13:32:16 *	pedronis hopes not
    Oct 27 13:32:20 ericvrp	bye
    Oct 27 13:32:25 mwh	bye
    Oct 27 13:32:28 *	mwh ( has left #pypy-sync ("ERC Version 5.0 (CVS) $Revision: 1.771 $ (IRC client for Emacs)")
    Oct 27 13:32:34 *	ericvrp ( has left #pypy-sync
    Oct 27 13:37:00 *	bertf has quit ()
    Oct 27 13:56:09 *	stakkars has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
    **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Oct 27 14:03:31 2005