1. Pypy
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Source

extradoc / minute / pypy-sync-2006-04-20.txt

holger krekel 9121390 














holger krekel 35e30c1 

holger krekel 9121390 











Armin Rigo be1cf85 
holger krekel 9121390 







holger krekel 35e30c1 













































































































































































































pypy-sync 20th April 2006, 05:30 PM (UTC+2)
=====================================================

attendants: michael, anto, carl, samuele, christian, richard, 
            eric, aurelien, gromit, arre, anders l.

- activity reports + blockers 
  everybody posted (see at the end of these minutes) 

- summer of X, how do we go about it? 

  we quickly agreed to 
  a) go for being mentors through PSF at Google's Summe of Code campaign 
  b) determined mentors 
  c) to create a directory in extradoc/soc-2006 listing all info (mentors, topics) 
  d) next week Michael will communicate all the info to Neal / PSF / SoC 

- what needs to be done until Iceland (21st May) for 0.9? 

  There was some initial and involved discussion on this topic, 
  which quickly moved to sorting out EU tasks and 
  responsibilities for some involved people.  
  
  Also related to the brief pypy-dev discussion between Armin
  and Holger, we determined a need to settle and agree on a
  distribution of tasks until and after Iceland.  This we
  agreed to do at a specific meeting for EU developers on 
  
    TUESDAY, 25th April, 5pm (UTC+2) 
  
  where Christian, Michael, Samuele, Holger, Carl, Aurelien, Anders L., 
  and Gromit agreed to attend already. 


IRC log
-------------------------------

:: 

    Apr 20 17:28:55 <mwh>	stakkars: hi!
    Apr 20 17:29:25 <stakkars>	hi friends
    Apr 20 17:29:59 <stakkars>	I'll give rxe a call
    Apr 20 17:30:25 <hpk>	hi all!
    Apr 20 17:30:33 stakkars stedi67 Apr 20 17:30:37 <hpk>	stakkars: want to wake him up? :)
    Apr 20 17:30:45 <Gromit>	hi
    Apr 20 17:30:53 <mwh>	T-0 according to me
    Apr 20 17:30:58 <hpk>	yip
    Apr 20 17:31:01 <mwh>	who is moderating? hpk ?
    Apr 20 17:31:06 <hpk>	yes, i guess so 
    Apr 20 17:31:17 <hpk>	topics:
    Apr 20 17:31:17 <hpk>	* activity reports
    Apr 20 17:31:17 <hpk>	* summer of X
    Apr 20 17:31:17 <hpk>	* work until iceland for 0.9 topics
    Apr 20 17:31:17 <hpk>	* assigning major 0.9 topics
    Apr 20 17:31:23 <stakkars>	he's early, probably in the company, swamped with work
    Apr 20 17:31:43 <hpk>	so let's start with activity reports (and we can see who is actually really here on the channel active :) 
    Apr 20 17:31:59 <arre>	PREV: vacation, configuring new laptop
    Apr 20 17:31:59 <arre>	NEXT: Tokyo sprint
    Apr 20 17:31:59 <arre>	BLOCKERS: -
    Apr 20 17:32:05 <aleale>	PREV: Vacation
    Apr 20 17:32:06 <hpk>	LAST: Leysin Sprint, iceland organisation, some testing and playing around
    Apr 20 17:32:06 <hpk>	NEXT: work on testing and build environment
    Apr 20 17:32:06 <hpk>	BLOCKERS: -
    Apr 20 17:32:06 <mwh>	LAST: slept off leysin, ACCU
    Apr 20 17:32:07 <mwh>	NEXT: stackless transform?
    Apr 20 17:32:07 <mwh>	BLOCKERS: insane busyness
    Apr 20 17:32:09 <auc>	LAST: investigating translatability of constraint stuff
    Apr 20 17:32:10 <auc>	NEXT: playing with choose()
    Apr 20 17:32:10 <auc>	BLOCKERS: working, clonable coroutines
    Apr 20 17:32:13 <ericvrp>	LAST: travelling
    Apr 20 17:32:13 <ericvrp>	NEXT: Tokyo sprint
    Apr 20 17:32:13 <ericvrp>	BLOCKERS: -
    Apr 20 17:32:16 <aleale>	NEXT: Sprint
    Apr 20 17:32:18 <aleale>	BLOCKERS: -
    Apr 20 17:32:23 <stedi67>	LAST: set implementation, finding bugs
    Apr 20 17:32:23 <stedi67>	NEXT: finding and documenting more bugs...
    Apr 20 17:32:23 <stedi67>	BLOCKERS: -
    Apr 20 17:32:26 <antocuni>	LAST: completed rlist support for ootypesystem
    Apr 20 17:32:27 <antocuni>	NEXT: more works on ootypesystem (probably rdict)
    Apr 20 17:32:29 <antocuni>	BLOCKER: my still poor knowledge of pypy internals :-)
    Apr 20 17:32:34 <cfbolz>	LAST: GC work, optimizations
    Apr 20 17:32:35 <cfbolz>	NEXT: uni stuff, trying to implement __del__ with the framework
    Apr 20 17:32:35 <cfbolz>	BLOCKERS: new environment, time constraints
    Apr 20 17:32:43 <pedronis>	LAST: {}[[]], tweaks and fixing various transformation problems, rested during easter
    Apr 20 17:32:45 <pedronis>	NEXT: tokyo sprint
    Apr 20 17:32:46 <pedronis>	BLOCKERS: -
    Apr 20 17:33:03 *	auc is away for 5 minutes
    Apr 20 17:33:07 <hpk>	auc: how badly do you depend on "clonable coroutines" and in which way? 
    Apr 20 17:33:11 <hpk>	oh, never mind then 
    Apr 20 17:33:37 <hpk>	ok, let's head on then
    Apr 20 17:33:43 <hpk>	* summer of X
    Apr 20 17:34:05 <hpk>	from in-between discussions and opinions i gather that we are all leaning towards participating in SoC as mentors through PSF
    Apr 20 17:34:11 <mwh>	yes
    Apr 20 17:34:12 <stakkars>	DONE: wrapping
    Apr 20 17:34:12 <stakkars>	NEXT: finalizing, prepare next PyPy work
    Apr 20 17:34:12 <stakkars>	BLOCK: complexity
    Apr 20 17:34:12 <hpk>	is that correct or are there other opinions? 
    Apr 20 17:34:35 <cfbolz>	sounds good to me
    Apr 20 17:34:51 <aleale>	ditto
    Apr 20 17:34:56 <arre>	+1
    Apr 20 17:35:00 <pedronis>	+1
    Apr 20 17:35:04 <hpk>	fine, then let's see how we go about it 
    Apr 20 17:35:05 <hpk>	a) mentors 
    Apr 20 17:35:06 <hpk>	b) topics 
    Apr 20 17:35:15 <Gromit>	hpk: just removed last years's mentorship entry from the wiki
    Apr 20 17:35:21 <hpk>	i suggest that we open a soc-2006 directory in extradoc with such information 
    Apr 20 17:35:32 <mwh>	everyone willing to mentor should email neal norwitz
    Apr 20 17:35:35 <hpk>	(Aurelien already committed something today to pypy/doc) 
    Apr 20 17:35:48 <hpk>	mwh: i think we should gather on our side and then someone sends all the info 
    Apr 20 17:36:02 <hpk>	should gather info 
    Apr 20 17:36:04 <mwh>	if you need "personal references" as on the python.org wiki, feel free to mention me :)
    Apr 20 17:36:05 <stakkars>	+1
    Apr 20 17:36:11 <mwh>	hpk: if you like
    Apr 20 17:36:24 <mwh>	i'm already signed up as a mentor, cause i was one last year
    Apr 20 17:36:44 <hpk>	mwh: ok, carl is as well i think 
    Apr 20 17:37:03 <cfbolz>	or will soon be
    Apr 20 17:37:06 <hpk>	ok, then let's put all info into soc-2006 and send info off on the weekend 
    Apr 20 17:37:15 <cfbolz>	just to get a quick impression:
    Apr 20 17:37:16 <mwh>	is there a deadline for mentoring?
    Apr 20 17:37:20 <cfbolz>	who would mentor?
    Apr 20 17:37:25 <cfbolz>	mwh: yes, there is one
    Apr 20 17:37:32 <hpk>	1st may i think
    Apr 20 17:37:38 <mwh>	cfbolz: me, you, armin for certain
    Apr 20 17:37:40 <hpk>	(but i may confuse the various deadlines) 
    Apr 20 17:37:56 <mwh>	hpk: i thought 1 may was the deadline for being a mentoring *organization*
    Apr 20 17:37:57 <hpk>	i would also mentor but preferably to py.test, build-tool stuff i guess 
    Apr 20 17:38:06 <cfbolz>	hpk: neal writes "soon" :-)
    Apr 20 17:38:17 <hpk>	mwh: ok, might well be, whatever, let's just get this sorted and communicate to them 
    Apr 20 17:38:25 <mwh>	hpk: sure
    Apr 20 17:38:28 <mwh>	it shouldn't be hard
    Apr 20 17:38:48 <cfbolz>	anybody else?
    Apr 20 17:39:07 <hpk>	i am sure that aurelien or so would be interested
    Apr 20 17:39:10 <arre>	Add me as well
    Apr 20 17:39:16 <aleale>	I would prefer not to
    Apr 20 17:39:31 <hpk>	eric also said that he would not like to 
    Apr 20 17:39:41 <hpk>	ok, then that's it for now 
    Apr 20 17:39:44 <stakkars>	I would, of course
    Apr 20 17:39:46 <ericvrp>	I would like to b a mentor but I think it would not be a good idea (indeed)
    Apr 20 17:39:49 <mwh>	pedronis, i guess
    Apr 20 17:40:03 <hpk>	let's just open the soc-2006 directory and put info there 
    Apr 20 17:40:08 <mwh>	hpk: are you going to be the one who checks this in?
    Apr 20 17:40:17 <pedronis>	mwh: ye
    Apr 20 17:40:17 <hpk>	cfbolz: can you make this happen and make sure we communicate next week to them? 
    Apr 20 17:40:34 <cfbolz>	hpk: not before sunday, no
    Apr 20 17:41:00 <hpk>	ok, then i start but would like you or someone else to communicate to the SoC people (Neal) 
    Apr 20 17:41:08 <hpk>	eventually
    Apr 20 17:41:12 <hpk>	as i haven't been involved there 
    Apr 20 17:41:23 <cfbolz>	mwh: do you know neal?
    Apr 20 17:41:34 <mwh>	cfbolz: i talked to him a bit at pycon
    Apr 20 17:41:45 <mwh>	i can do the communicating
    Apr 20 17:41:52 <hpk>	cool, thanks
    Apr 20 17:41:57 <mwh>	i am away 29 apr -> 8 may (ish)
    Apr 20 17:42:02 <mwh>	so i'll do it before then :)
    Apr 20 17:42:06 <hpk>	ok, let's try to do it before then 
    Apr 20 17:42:07 <hpk>	yes
    Apr 20 17:42:10 <hpk>	next topic 
    Apr 20 17:42:24 <hpk>	* 0.9 related work until iceland 
    Apr 20 17:42:44 -->	rxe (n=rxe@66.151.59.5) has joined #pypy-sync
    Apr 20 17:42:47 <hpk>	hi richard :) 
    Apr 20 17:42:57 <rxe>	Hi everyone! :-)
    Apr 20 17:42:59 <stakkars>	:-)
    Apr 20 17:43:01 <ericvrp>	hey richard
    Apr 20 17:43:02 <rxe>	sorry it has been a long time
    Apr 20 17:43:03 <mwh>	hey rxe
    Apr 20 17:43:48 <hpk>	so there has been a bit of discussion on pypy-dev 
    Apr 20 17:44:05 <hpk>	what do the others think? 
    Apr 20 17:45:31 <cfbolz>	the truth is somewhere in the middle. there is definitively more to do than just stackless pickling
    Apr 20 17:45:51 <ericvrp>	My feeling is that a 0.9 version should be almost a 1.0 version (which I consider a "this is it" version) does that make sense?
    Apr 20 17:46:07 <ericvrp>	which I think we are not quiet yet
    Apr 20 17:46:08 <cfbolz>	like finishing the stackless-applevel exposure
    Apr 20 17:46:33 <hpk>	the major topics of the 0.9 release are the ext-module compiler and stackless features 
    Apr 20 17:46:37 <pedronis>	well, there's also other stuff in the WP7 tasks which is explcitly listed
    Apr 20 17:46:48 <cfbolz>	yes, __del__, weakref
    Apr 20 17:47:09 <stakkars>	that's just work. pickling is hard since I still don't know how
    Apr 20 17:47:10 <pedronis>	I don't think WP7 says anything about __dell__ or weakrefr
    Apr 20 17:47:26 <pedronis>	well, even just work takes time
    Apr 20 17:47:31 <cfbolz>	pedronis: then not :-)
    Apr 20 17:47:33 <cfbolz>	pedronis: indeed
    Apr 20 17:47:53 <stakkars>	yes but I can distribute if I know how
    Apr 20 17:48:06 <mwh>	stakkars: what are you working planning on working on?
    Apr 20 17:48:21 <mwh>	damn timezones mean i don't get to chat much...
    Apr 20 17:49:02 <stakkars>	well pickling first thing, although it might depend on the new transform
    Apr 20 17:49:05 <hpk>	cfbolz: the thing regarding "middle ground": we really only have 7 months left for tons of stuff we want to do - just postponing things from a "we don't neccessarily need to do it" will backfire IMO 
    Apr 20 17:49:21 <hpk>	so we should strike a good balance 
    Apr 20 17:49:26 stakkars stedi67 Apr 20 17:49:33 <pedronis>	cfbolz: the fact is that some unfinished WP7ish stuff is really WP5 leftovers
    Apr 20 17:49:34 <hpk>	stakkars: note that the new transform is not fully integrated 
    Apr 20 17:49:45 <mwh>	stakkars: have you looked at the transforrm code?
    Apr 20 17:49:45 <hpk>	it just mostly works but certainly requires work 
    Apr 20 17:50:10 <stakkars>	that's what I'm saying, might be blocker
    Apr 20 17:50:25 <cfbolz>	pedronis: what is a wp5 leftover?
    Apr 20 17:50:35 <pedronis>	cfbolz: well part of the GC stuff
    Apr 20 17:50:53 <hpk>	stakkars: michael and me worked on stackless to support you, not to block you :) 
    Apr 20 17:50:58 <mwh>	i mean, maybe in the short term it makes sense for stakkars to work on channels and greenlets, and for me to try to polish the stackless transform
    Apr 20 17:51:00 <pedronis>	stakkars: you have 9 mm in WP7
    Apr 20 17:51:19 *	auc is back (ouch)
    Apr 20 17:51:28 <stakkars>	gosh. I appreciate of course.
    Apr 20 17:51:30 <mwh>	by "short term" i mean "for a week"
    Apr 20 17:51:59 <stakkars>	I just didn't realize that it's necessary,, before i saw pedronis message
    Apr 20 17:52:21 <hpk>	the idea of the current topic is that we identify the issues and assign responsible persons
    Apr 20 17:52:30 <hpk>	i am not sure we can achieve it in some minutes 
    Apr 20 17:52:40 <hpk>	but we should aim for getting that clarified latest next week 
    Apr 20 17:53:23 <cfbolz>	yes
    Apr 20 17:53:35 <hpk>	because not discussing it will not help either :) 
    Apr 20 17:53:47 <mwh>	indeed :)
    Apr 20 17:53:54 <stakkars>	mwh: that makes a lot of sense
    Apr 20 17:53:56 <pedronis>	stakkars: is really your workpackage. Helping you is shifting things around. It may even become a serious issue after a point.
    Apr 20 17:54:25 <pedronis>	but is not the right forum for that discussion
    Apr 20 17:54:29 <hpk>	yes, i agree
    Apr 20 17:55:10 <stakkars>	pedronis:I considered the grapg transform as an add-on, nice to have. as said, didn't know
    Apr 20 17:55:27 <cfbolz>	stakkars: well, it will be necessary for graph pickling
    Apr 20 17:55:35 <cfbolz>	stakkars: so it is not an addon
    Apr 20 17:55:36 <hpk>	so we need a discussion next week about this specific "how to tackle 0.9 tasks" topic and to define the scope 
    Apr 20 17:55:46 <mwh>	cfbolz: necessary is a strong word, but i more or less agree
    Apr 20 17:56:03 <mwh>	another point that isn't entirely irrelevant is that i'm enjoying working on 'stackless style' stuff
    Apr 20 17:56:12 <mwh>	:)
    Apr 20 17:56:12 *	hpk too actually
    Apr 20 17:56:14 <pedronis>	anyway task pickling plus the other missing stuff is not a small task
    Apr 20 17:56:19 <hpk>	yes
    Apr 20 17:56:24 <pedronis>	to finish in less than a month
    Apr 20 17:56:50 <pedronis>	that we are so late was not expected
    Apr 20 17:56:58 <hpk>	ok, as we are discussing things mostly from an EU perspective i'd like to invite to a specific meeting for EU developers early next week 
    Apr 20 17:57:15 <pedronis>	yes, this is not the right forum
    Apr 20 17:57:21 <hpk>	tuesday? 
    Apr 20 17:57:28 <hpk>	big thing is to find the right time for everyone :) 
    Apr 20 17:57:35 <mwh>	tuesday would be fine
    Apr 20 17:57:38 <hpk>	5pm seems likes the best compromise 
    Apr 20 17:57:44 <hpk>	midnight in japan, 8am in CA 
    Apr 20 17:57:45 <mwh>	(i will be in düsseldorf)
    Apr 20 17:57:58 stakkars stedi67 Apr 20 17:58:20 <hpk>	mwh, stakkars, cfbolz, pedronis, auc, aleale, arre, ...: fine for you? 
    Apr 20 17:58:23 <stakkars>	for me, the other way goes as well (midnight +)
    Apr 20 17:58:35 <aleale>	ok
    Apr 20 17:58:37 <mwh>	yes
    Apr 20 17:59:00 stakkars stedi67 Apr 20 17:59:05 <auc>	ok
    Apr 20 17:59:14 <cfbolz>	ok
    Apr 20 17:59:28 <stakkars>	ok
    Apr 20 17:59:45 <hpk>	great, than we close this topic (and the next one, which relates to it) 
    Apr 20 17:59:46 <Gromit>	ok
    Apr 20 17:59:58 <hpk>	see you all, i will mail to pypy-dev to not forget anyone 
    Apr 20 18:00:31 <hpk>	auc:  you are available for mentoring as well, right? 
    Apr 20 18:00:36 <hpk>	auc: mentoring SoC 
    Apr 20 18:01:12 -->	Gromit_ (n=bear@does-d9b90ad6.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined #pypy-sync
    Apr 20 18:01:49 <auc>	hpk: i guesss so ...
    Apr 20 18:02:12 <auc>	but not necessarily about all of what i posted in pypy/doc