pypy-sync developer meeting 20th October
Time & location: 1pm (30 minutes) at #pypy-sync
Eric van Riet Paap
Carl Friedrich Bolz
Adrien di Mascio (late)
- activity reports (3 prepared lines of info).
All Attendees submitted activity reports (see `IRC-Log`_
at the end and 'LAST/NEXT/BLOCKERS' entries in particular)
- resolve conflicts/blockers: No blockers
Topics of the week
Status update and next steps
Armin reports that classes/instance support in the rtyper for ootypes seems
reasonably complete now: class attributes, abstract base methods, function
pointers stored on instances seem to work. Missing are all other high level
types like strings, lists, tuples, dicts, etc. Samuele notes that there might
still be problems with obscure prebuilt constants. Bert intends to work on
the squeak backend and Armin tries to help him as far as his work on reports
permit that. Holger notes that Impara's work should be more focused on
evaluating the possibilities how to integrate pypy and squeak to which Bert
Armin points at the discussion that took place on PyPy-dev:
and also notes that some more discussion might be needed. The current state of
the app-level stackless module is described at:
Christian is working on reducing the overhead of stackless. There was some
discussion about the question whether stackless should be mentioned as
implemented in the current reports already. Holger and Carl Friedrich are
opposed to this idea since there will be a lot more reports coming.
Armin and Christian were in favor of writing about it. Some further discussion
is needed about this.
Carl Friedrich describes the current the of the l3interpreter: the
basic model is in place, for now only some operations with integers work.
There is some code that can convert low level to l3 graphs but it is far
from complete. Everybody agreed that nobody will work on the l3interpreter
until should not be worked on until the reports are finished.
Adrien thinks that compiler seems more or less stable now, although there are
still some bugs found every now and then. It was agreed upon that nobody will
work on it for a while.
Eric describes the current state of the JS backend: it passes around 50%
of the LLVM tests. The work on the JS backend is simpler because GC and
exception handling can be handed down to the underlying JS interpreter.
Eric will give a lightning talk on OSCON in Amsterdam and ask for feedback
Next pypy-sync meeting
Scheduled for next Thursday, Oct. 27th 13.00h CET, conducted by Carl Friedrich
Carl Friedrich closes the meeting in time.
Here is the full IRC log::
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Oct 20 12:27:08 2005
Oct 20 12:27:08 * Now talking on #pypy-sync
Oct 20 12:51:06 * hpk (email@example.com) has joined #pypy-sync
Oct 20 12:51:17 * pedronis (n=Samuele_@c-3c8b70d5.022-54-67626719.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #pypy-sync
Oct 20 12:51:57 * stakkars (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #pypy-sync
Oct 20 12:58:57 * mwh (email@example.com) has joined #pypy-sync
Oct 20 13:00:02 cfbolz hi all! it 1pm on my clock now, shall we start?
Oct 20 13:00:20 stakkars DONE: more on source ordering, stackless experiments
Oct 20 13:00:21 stakkars NEXT: finishing this, continue on spackless stuff
Oct 20 13:00:21 stakkars BLOCK: None
Oct 20 13:00:43 mwh last: form filling, recovering from sprint, playing with gcc optimisations
Oct 20 13:00:43 mwh next: reports, not sure what else
Oct 20 13:00:43 mwh blockers: german bureaucracy
Oct 20 13:00:48 hpk LAST: paris sprint, eu issues/background organisation, codespeak issues NEXT: getting eric on board, some codespeak stuff, marocco BLOCKERS: mixed connectivity
Oct 20 13:01:04 * arigo (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #pypy-sync
Oct 20 13:01:10 arigo hi all
Oct 20 13:01:10 cfbolz LAST: sprinting, working on statistics gathering and code coverage
Oct 20 13:01:10 cfbolz NEXT: more statistics, code coverage, reports
Oct 20 13:01:10 cfbolz BLOCKERS: too many tasks :-)
Oct 20 13:01:25 pedronis LAST: sprint; looking into packing 0.6 test results, D04.4; annotation for fixed-size list support
Oct 20 13:01:27 pedronis NEXT: reports, ...
Oct 20 13:01:28 pedronis BLOCKERS: -
Oct 20 13:01:43 arigo DONE: ootyper (classes/instances roughly complete now); some continuation
Oct 20 13:01:43 arigo experiments; more pypy-c debugging (it still doesn't run py.py)
Oct 20 13:01:43 arigo NEXT: reports D05.1 and D05.4 :-/
Oct 20 13:01:43 arigo BLOCKERS: -
Oct 20 13:02:27 cfbolz erics lines:
Oct 20 13:02:31 cfbolz Next: genjs
Oct 20 13:02:31 cfbolz Blockers: -
Oct 20 13:02:44 cfbolz arre?
Oct 20 13:03:25 * bertf (n=bert@pD951499A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #pypy-sync
Oct 20 13:03:35 * ericvrp2 (email@example.com) has joined #pypy-sync
Oct 20 13:03:42 cfbolz hi bert! want to post your acitvity report?
Oct 20 13:03:48 cfbolz hi eric! I just posted your lines
Oct 20 13:03:49 stakkars hi Bert, thanks for the wire
Oct 20 13:03:56 ericvrp2 'kay
Oct 20 13:04:17 bertf activities - recovering from sprint
Oct 20 13:05:11 cfbolz there don't seem to be blockers that can be resolved
Oct 20 13:05:20 cfbolz let's proceed to the regular topics
Oct 20 13:05:24 cfbolz Status update and next steps
Oct 20 13:05:28 cfbolz ootypessytem
Oct 20 13:05:51 cfbolz can somebody give an update about the status there?
Oct 20 13:06:29 arigo yes
Oct 20 13:06:40 arigo the classes/instances support seem reasonably complete now
Oct 20 13:07:01 arigo class attributes, abstract base methods, function pointers stored on instances, etc.
Oct 20 13:07:12 arigo I basically copied rclass.py from lltype one test at a time
Oct 20 13:07:29 bertf nice :)
Oct 20 13:07:38 arigo so what's missing now are all other high-level types: strings, lists, tuples, dicts, etc.
Oct 20 13:07:50 arigo I guess we need to discuss more before we start that
Oct 20 13:08:00 pedronis and I suppose passing more obscure rpbc stuff
Oct 20 13:08:07 cfbolz arigo: indeed. later on #pypy?
Oct 20 13:08:11 arigo sure
Oct 20 13:08:30 cfbolz who is going to work on this the next weeks?
Oct 20 13:08:31 arigo pedronis: yes, though I think half of the obscure stuff will work magically :-)
Oct 20 13:08:46 pedronis yes, there's a chance
Oct 20 13:08:48 arre Sorry for joining late.
Oct 20 13:08:53 * stakkars is on a modem line. following on #pypy will be too expensive,today
Oct 20 13:09:26 arigo from now on, a lot of the hard stuff in rdict.py&co will be easy and pushed to the back-end (i.e. Bert :-)
Oct 20 13:09:39 bertf fine with me ...
Oct 20 13:09:43 cfbolz ok
Oct 20 13:10:03 arigo I can continue to help anyway (reports reports reports)
Oct 20 13:10:22 cfbolz yes
Oct 20 13:10:25 cfbolz next topic?
Oct 20 13:10:29 cfbolz stackless integration
Oct 20 13:10:29 cfbolz ---------------------
Oct 20 13:10:33 cfbolz status?
Oct 20 13:10:40 arre cfboltz: Want my lines?
Oct 20 13:10:56 cfbolz arre: ok
Oct 20 13:11:08 arre PREV: preparing data for reports, catching up on work done during sprint
Oct 20 13:11:09 arre NEXT: Help my parents move (No PyPy work)
Oct 20 13:11:09 arre BLOCKERS: None
Oct 20 13:11:23 cfbolz thanks
Oct 20 13:11:25 arigo stackless integration: more discussion needed with Christian
Oct 20 13:11:45 * hpk just sidenotes that the focus of impara should nevertheless probably be on an evaluation/laying out of the approaches of integrating squeak with pypy
Oct 20 13:11:47 stakkars well, the current plan looks fine.
Oct 20 13:12:15 stakkars I'm also looking into ways to reduce the overhead.
Oct 20 13:12:30 * bertf nods
Oct 20 13:13:09 * stakkars can discuss in the evening a bit
Oct 20 13:13:19 cfbolz current plan is the discussion that took on on pypy-dev?
Oct 20 13:13:26 arigo yes
Oct 20 13:13:51 cfbolz ok. christian, are you going to work on that?
Oct 20 13:14:17 stakkars sure. And I'd like to help with reporting (preferredly writing towads stackless stuff but well)
Oct 20 13:14:30 cfbolz great
Oct 20 13:14:57 hpk i think stackless is not the focus on phase 1 reports, but it can be hinted at when talking about flexibility
Oct 20 13:15:05 stakkars after a break and some home trouble, I'm about to finish code ordering (convergence problem) and sqitch to stackless then
Oct 20 13:15:12 * adim (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #pypy-sync
Oct 20 13:15:13 arigo hpk: D05.3 should talk about stackless in some details
Oct 20 13:15:17 stakkars ah - oh
Oct 20 13:15:25 adim Hi everyone (sorry for being late)
Oct 20 13:15:36 hpk (claiming that the architecture provides enoug leeway for stackless as if we hadn't tried it already, so we can be bold :-)
Oct 20 13:15:41 cfbolz but this needs to be carefully done, since after all there are other stackless reports later
Oct 20 13:16:10 cfbolz so we probably don't want to give it all away already
Oct 20 13:16:13 hpk it should just be more or less bold claims / statements about the architecture for phase 1 IMO
Oct 20 13:16:19 stakkars reporting about the current achievement would make sense,although I don't know whether Armin wants to do it
Oct 20 13:16:51 arigo maybe we can report about what we got at the end of the sprint
Oct 20 13:16:53 hpk no, i do think that we have to think about correct timing, our reports will always lack behind
Oct 20 13:17:11 stakkars arigo: that's what I meant
Oct 20 13:17:11 hpk we have 40 reports to go (or some such)
Oct 20 13:17:22 arigo stakkars: ok
Oct 20 13:17:32 hpk arigo, stakkars : but i disagree
Oct 20 13:17:36 arigo hpk: I see the point
Oct 20 13:18:11 cfbolz let's defer this to #pypy, I'd say
Oct 20 13:18:15 cfbolz l3interpreter
Oct 20 13:18:15 cfbolz -------------
Oct 20 13:18:28 cfbolz I can say something about the status
Oct 20 13:18:43 cfbolz the basic model is in place, it ignores everything except integers for now
Oct 20 13:18:43 hpk cfbolz: defering without refering to persons seems difficult, but well
Oct 20 13:19:20 cfbolz hpk: point taken
Oct 20 13:19:59 cfbolz to l3interpreter there is some code that converts l2 to l3 but it can't do very much yet
Oct 20 13:19:59 mwh what types will the l3interpreter need to know about eventually?
Oct 20 13:20:11 hpk the question is (IMO) if we want to work much on l3interpreter in the next weeks
Oct 20 13:20:21 cfbolz probably rather not
Oct 20 13:20:56 cfbolz too much work on reports to do
Oct 20 13:21:11 mwh indeed
Oct 20 13:21:39 cfbolz so I'd say I'll try to write a bit about the plans we had at the sprint and put it to sleep afterwards
Oct 20 13:22:03 hpk yip, i think so as well
Oct 20 13:22:15 cfbolz ok then
Oct 20 13:22:16 cfbolz compiler
Oct 20 13:22:16 cfbolz --------
Oct 20 13:22:24 cfbolz could anybody tell what the status there is?
Oct 20 13:22:38 mwh well, we found another crazy bug last night
Oct 20 13:22:53 adim mwh: ah ?
Oct 20 13:22:58 mwh armin fixed it somewhat
Oct 20 13:23:05 hpk sorry, i have to ask: does everybody else think it's ok to postpone l3interpreter until - say - december?
Oct 20 13:23:26 mwh adim: from Lib/compiler, to do with __name mangling
Oct 20 13:23:37 arigo hpk: no, I'd only say until we are done with the bunch of thereports
Oct 20 13:23:43 stakkars yes. in effect this would continue at the next sprint, then.
Oct 20 13:23:53 cfbolz arigo: which will probably nearly be december :-)
Oct 20 13:23:58 arigo ok ok :-)
Oct 20 13:24:02 hpk arigo: ok, this will be aerly december, i am afraid, but we'll see
Oct 20 13:24:09 adim cfbolz: for the compiler, I would say that we can consider it as finished since failing compliancy tests are note compiler-related bugs
Oct 20 13:24:27 adim but it doesn't guarantee that there's no bug left
Oct 20 13:24:43 hpk surely not
Oct 20 13:24:55 cfbolz so will anybody work on it?
Oct 20 13:25:09 pedronis arigo, hpk: I see, the important thing is that when we restart we have a short discussion on what next, if we manage before december
Oct 20 13:25:10 arigo the bugs are not known yet :-)
Oct 20 13:25:13 adim I don't really think so.
Oct 20 13:25:16 mwh as bugs are found, surely
Oct 20 13:25:18 adim :)
Oct 20 13:25:28 cfbolz ok, makes sense for everybody?
Oct 20 13:25:39 hpk makes sense to consider it finished for now, yes
Oct 20 13:25:43 hpk (to me)
Oct 20 13:25:55 cfbolz to me as well
Oct 20 13:26:15 arigo yes
Oct 20 13:26:21 stakkars 'k
Oct 20 13:26:34 mwh is this some kind of vote? :)
Oct 20 13:26:37 cfbolz yes
Oct 20 13:26:39 cfbolz :-)
Oct 20 13:26:41 cfbolz ok then
Oct 20 13:26:42 * mwh says "aye" too
Oct 20 13:26:45 cfbolz ------------------
Oct 20 13:26:50 arre Aye.
Oct 20 13:27:03 cfbolz ericvrp2?
Oct 20 13:27:03 ericvrp2 genjs is passing about 50% of the (llvm) unittests.
Oct 20 13:27:06 hpk mwh: we use to answer questions like this from the moderator :like "is everybody ..." :-)
Oct 20 13:27:06 ericvrp2 Actual testing in browsers is being worked on by Guido Wesdorp.
Oct 20 13:27:09 ericvrp2 The code looks very similar but simpler that the C/LLVM code.
Oct 20 13:27:12 ericvrp2 This is mostly because I can use JS' garbage collection and excption handling.
Oct 20 13:27:17 ericvrp2 I am here now at euro OSCON in Amsterdam to give a 5 minute lightning talk about it
Oct 20 13:27:18 ericvrp2 and my question to the audience will be to come up with use-cases.
Oct 20 13:27:33 cfbolz :-)
Oct 20 13:27:38 hpk :-)
Oct 20 13:27:51 adim :)
Oct 20 13:27:53 * ericvrp2 blurb
Oct 20 13:28:05 hpk does spidermonkey also provide some dom-simulation or so?
Oct 20 13:28:12 * hpk notices that time is getting short
Oct 20 13:28:20 ericvrp2 I don't think so
Oct 20 13:28:22 cfbolz indeed, less than two min left
Oct 20 13:28:36 mwh anything else?
Oct 20 13:28:53 pedronis should we think to do new a release?
Oct 20 13:28:56 mwh i probably won't sign my contract on this visit to duesseldorf :(
Oct 20 13:29:00 cfbolz :-(
Oct 20 13:29:03 hpk pedronis: next pypy-sync meeting?
Oct 20 13:29:07 cfbolz indeed
Oct 20 13:29:09 hpk mwh: buah
Oct 20 13:29:29 cfbolz anybody opposed to close the meeting?
Oct 20 13:29:36 hpk nope
Oct 20 13:29:58 stakkars bye
Oct 20 13:30:01 ericvrp2 bye
Oct 20 13:30:04 adim bye
Oct 20 13:30:05 arigo bye
Oct 20 13:30:17 bertf bye
Oct 20 13:30:27 cfbolz see you all next week!
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Oct 20 13:31:20 hpk bye
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**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Oct 20 13:33:51 2005