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SCons / BugParty / IrcLog2009-04-29

17:10:22  *      bdbaddog (n=[chatzill@adsl-71-142-86-81.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net](mailto:chatzill@adsl-71-142-86-81.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)) has joined #scons 
17:18:36  *      Jason_at_intel (n=[chatzill@bementil-116.illinois.prairieinet.net](mailto:chatzill@bementil-116.illinois.prairieinet.net)) has joined #scons 
17:27:26  <bdbaddog>     Hi Jason 
17:27:43  *      garyo-home (n=[chatzill@209-6-158-38.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com](mailto:chatzill@209-6-158-38.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com)) has joined #scons 
17:27:59  *      [GregNoel](GregNoel) is no longer marked as being away 
17:31:33  <garyo-home>   hi 
17:32:00  <Jason_at_intel>       hi 
17:32:09  <Jason_at_intel>       sorry was away from the computer 
17:32:23  *      stevenknight (n=[stevenkn@67.218.104.94](mailto:stevenkn@67.218.104.94)) has joined #scons 
17:32:30  <garyo-home>   big group here tonight, looks like! 
17:32:36  *      stevenknight is now known as sk 
17:32:48  <sk>   hey all 
17:32:55  <Jason_at_intel>       hi 
17:33:02  <sk>   hey Jason_at_inetl 
17:33:54  <garyo-home>   Hi Steven 
17:34:25  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Hi, guys... 
17:34:30  <garyo-home>   Hi, Greg. 
17:34:45  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Steven has only ~45 minutes on the shuttle, but can connect again after he gets home (a break of ~15 minutes, he says).  That's not enough time to do all the issues and then discuss the 1.3 plans.  (I'd like to see what's happening, as I have a gap coming up next week when I could spent full time on the changes between 1.3 and 2.0.) 
17:34:45  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I propose that we go as far as we can with the issues, but break when Steven is maybe 15 minutes from his stop and discuss 1.3 plans so that they won't get dropped. 
17:34:45  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Then we can decide if we want to reconvene when he gets home or leave the remaining issues for next time. 
17:34:45  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Comments? 
17:35:14  <garyo-home>   ok 
17:35:47  <sk>   worksforme 
17:36:14  <garyo-home>   ok, shall we dive in? 
17:36:16  <garyo-home>   148? 
17:36:39  <sk>   consensus 1.3+doc, p3, bill? 
17:36:52  <garyo-home>   sure.  Bill, I like your text in the bug report. 
17:36:54  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done; glad it's not me 
17:38:07  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     633 
17:38:23  <sk>   633:  consensus 2.x p3 Lukas Erlingen 
17:38:27  <garyo-home>   633 2.x p3 lukas 
17:38:32  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
17:38:36  <sk>   790: 
17:38:50  <garyo-home>   bill already emailed OP, great! 
17:38:57  <sk>   go bill! 
17:39:02  <sk>   for classification? 
17:39:11  <sk>   how about future, p3, +MinGW keyword? 
17:39:27  <garyo-home>   works4me 
17:39:29  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I'll agree 
17:39:48  <sk>   done 
17:39:50  <sk>   797: 
17:39:51  <garyo-home>   797, 3.x p3 draft choice 
17:40:03  <sk>   done 
17:40:12  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
17:40:30  <sk>   (browser lag...) 
17:40:49  <sk>   (someone carry on) 
17:40:50  <garyo-home>   798: hard to warn in this case. 
17:41:03  <garyo-home>   I think doc's the best we can do. 
17:41:24  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     if the docs already say it's a global namespace, close as invalid 
17:41:39  <garyo-home>   I don't think the doc is that clear on it. 
17:42:10  <sk>   agree w/documenting this explicit case 
17:42:17  <sk>   [GregNoel](GregNoel) is technically correct 
17:42:30  <sk>   but not everyone immediately grasps that implication of "global namespace" 
17:42:35  <sk>   and I'm in favor of trying to be helpful 
17:42:29  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     then 2.1 p2 Bill? 
17:42:49  <garyo-home>   Bill, if you want help w/ verbiage I can pitch in 
17:43:02  <sk>   2.1 p2 bill, if it's ok w/him 
17:43:50  <garyo-home>   (bill?) 
17:43:59  <sk>   bdbaddog:  ping 
17:44:08  <Jason_at_intel>       sk: global is as in global or global in environment 
17:44:46  <garyo-home>   global as in global. 
17:45:02  <sk>   Export("env") exports to a global namespace 
17:44:59  <Jason_at_intel>       thanks 
17:45:01  <garyo-home>   Let's just assign it to him & move on, he volunteered in the ssheet. 
17:45:10  <sk>   done 
17:45:10  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
17:45:41  <garyo-home>   804 seems to have mutated far from what I originally reported. 
17:46:22  <sk>   804:  research, not me 
17:46:24  <garyo-home>   I don't know what a [LazyAction](LazyAction) is, but I can guess it gets in the way of this use case. 
17:46:49  <garyo-home>   3.x p4 draft pick??  Unless Bill is interested? 
17:47:07  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I'm not seeing any consensus; bypass? 
17:47:08  <sk>   garyo-home:  there's a special hack in Action.py that looks for an action like '$SINGLE_VARIABLE_NAME' 
17:47:38  <garyo-home>   that explains why all the workarounds work, then. 
17:47:39  <sk>   if it finds that, it instantiates a special class that delays instantiation of the actual Action object until it's used 
17:48:33  <garyo-home>   I see, it's so the var can be lazy-evaled as late as possible. 
17:48:17  <sk>   what i'd really like is for us to revisit the underlying problem this was introduced to solve way back when because we have a lot more functionality now and could probably get rid of the hack by providing a transition to a less hacky solution 
17:48:38  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     No time here; bypass until next time? 
17:48:44  <garyo-home>   ok w/ me 
17:49:02  <sk>   okay, defer 
17:49:06  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
17:49:08  <sk>   806 
17:49:11  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     806 
17:49:26  <sk>   consensus 2.x p4, who? 
17:49:38  <garyo-home>   I"ll contact OP 
17:49:47  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
17:49:53  <sk>   810: 
17:50:05  <sk>   consensus future p2 
17:50:12  <garyo-home>   good 
17:50:23  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Gary, yes, would need both revamped downstream dependencies and something like [DynamicSourceGenerator](DynamicSourceGenerator). 
17:50:27  <sk>   813:  consensus 2.x p3 Bill +dmd 
17:50:39  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
17:50:48  <sk>   816:  consensus 2.x p3 +Easy 
17:50:56  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
17:51:06  <sk>   824: research Ariane 
17:51:11  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     A note: Ariane Paola is her first name 
17:51:25  <sk>   (might be a stretch, but we'll kick it back if it seems outside her intended domain) 
17:51:29  <sk>   arianepaola, yt? 
17:51:50  <garyo-home>   Thanks, Greg.  And hi, Ariane Paola if you're online! 
17:52:12  <bdbaddog>     back now.. dang mac... 
17:52:25  <garyo-home>   np, we just assigned all the bugs to you. :-) 
17:52:35  <bdbaddog>     I saw.. ;) 
17:52:58  <bdbaddog>     re 804. anyone able to look at the taskmaster traces? 
17:53:09  <sk>   not me 
17:53:32  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     804: why? it has nothing to do with Taskmaster. 
17:53:44  <garyo-home>   804, we decided to revisit next time because we didn't get consensus yet 
17:53:53  <garyo-home>   ... and we're trying to go fast tonight 
17:53:57  <bdbaddog>     o.k 
17:53:11  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     824: priority and milestone 
17:53:38  <sk>   824: for research? 
17:54:11  <garyo-home>   824: research Ariane Paola 
17:54:17  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     OK, done 
17:54:22  <sk>   824 done 
17:54:26  <sk>   843:  consensus future +qt 
17:54:42  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     priority? 
17:54:50  <sk>   p3 
17:54:51  <garyo-home>   843: Bill, if you have a builder at least put it on the wiki. 
17:55:04  <bdbaddog>     it's in previous clients code.. I'll ask if it's ok.. 
17:55:11  <garyo-home>   I think someday we'll scrape all the builders off the wiki into a contrib folder or something. 
17:55:25  <garyo-home>   (or separate repo) 
17:55:22  <sk>   contrib folder ++ 
17:55:46  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     priority? 
17:55:54  <bdbaddog>     p3 is fine 
17:55:55  <garyo-home>   p3? 
17:55:59  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
17:56:09  <sk>   843:  future p3 +qt 
17:56:24  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     We're done with the backlog! 
17:56:33  <garyo-home>   Greg: go us! 
17:56:44  *      sk applauds wildly 
17:57:03  *      sk grins sheepishly at the other people on the shuttle 
17:57:07  *      garyo-home smiles 
17:56:24  <sk>   2384:  consensus 2.x p2 [GregNoel](GregNoel) 
17:56:29  <garyo-home>   2384: 2.x p2 greg 
17:56:35  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
17:57:24  <sk>   2384:  done 
17:57:26  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2400? 
17:57:42  <sk>   2400:  doc 
17:57:44  <garyo-home>   anytime, p3, doc, who? 
17:57:52  <sk>   bdbaddog, can you?  you're picking up a few others of those 
17:57:54  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     +Easy 
17:57:58  <garyo-home>   sure 
17:58:17  <sk>   2400:  anytime, p3, doc, bdbaddog +Easy 
17:58:20  <bdbaddog>     sure. Got little work this week so I have time. 
17:58:25  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
17:58:26  <garyo-home>   thanks! 
17:58:43  <sk>   ta 
17:58:51  <garyo-home>   ? 
17:59:09  <sk>   (archaic short form for "thanks") 
17:59:26  <garyo-home>   learn something new every day. 
17:59:43  <Jason_at_intel>       ( thought it was thanks again) 
17:59:58  <garyo-home>   jason: that makes sense 
17:59:31  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2401, consensus 
17:59:32  <sk>   2401:  anytime p2 [GregNoel](GregNoel) 
17:59:33  <garyo-home>   2401 anytime/p2/greg 
17:59:36  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
17:59:37  <sk>   done 
18:00:05  <garyo-home>   2402 anytime/p4/greg 
18:00:08  <sk>   2402:  anytime p4 greg 
18:00:13  <bdbaddog>     +1 
18:00:16  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
18:00:25  <sk>   done 
18:00:29  <garyo-home>   2403 anytime/p3/bill 
18:00:35  <sk>   2403:  anytime p3 bdbaddog 
18:00:36  <sk>   done 
18:00:41  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
18:00:38  <garyo-home>   sk: how much time do you have left? 
18:00:58  <sk>   ~15, let's defer the rest 
18:01:05  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     works 
18:01:11  <garyo-home>   (actually 2405 is consensus) 
18:01:39  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2405: done 
18:01:14  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     1.3 then? 
18:01:16  <sk>   okay, re: 1.3 
18:01:38  <sk>   hold up is I don't have time to do a proper job on the integration 
18:01:48  <bdbaddog>     I've got time. 
18:01:59  <sk>   there's some design work that needs doing 
18:02:00  <garyo-home>   the vs_revamp stuff integration? 
18:02:11  <sk>   yes vs_revamp 
18:02:27  <sk>   Jason contributed the parts code and some really valuable insight into 64-bit / 32-bit support 
18:02:38  <garyo-home>   I'm trying to use vs_revamp at work w/o success yet, but I need to rip out all our old hacks before I know what's wrong 
18:02:41  <sk>   unfortunately, it's lain fallow long enough that I've forgotten the particulars 
18:02:43  <Jason_at_intel>       oh forgot to send you the updates 
18:02:56  <sk>   about what needs updating 
18:03:01  <bdbaddog>     Jason.. are the latest in parts/trunk? 
18:03:08  <Jason_at_intel>       Yes 
18:03:12  <garyo-home>   From what I could see Jason's work has definite value 
18:03:15  <sk>   i remember there are some parts of Jason's parts stuff that didn't feel completely "SConsy" to me 
18:03:22  <sk>   but again don't remember the particulars 
18:03:27  <garyo-home>   but needs some merging (yes SK) 
18:03:27  <sk>   agreed re: value 
18:03:41  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Let's focus on 1.3, please 
18:03:48  <Jason_at_intel>       I plan to revamp it again.. I have a general toolsetup object.. the hope it to make it easy to add any tool and new version of it 
18:03:50  <sk>   i tried to look for ~1 hour last night 
18:03:57  <sk>   through email and the current code state 
18:03:49  <garyo-home>   Steven, can you provide Bill some direction? 
18:04:13  <sk>   yeah, was trying to get to that last night 
18:04:28  <sk>   the problem is it's taking me too long to recreate what needs to be done 
18:04:36  <sk>   and i didn't make any good notes when i had it in mind... :-( 
18:04:36  <Jason_at_intel>       ...>    i remember there are some parts of Jason's parts stuff that didn't feel completely "SConsy" to me 
18:04:45  <Jason_at_intel>       so I wanted to talk to you some time about that :-) 
18:04:57  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Not now, please. 
18:05:15  <garyo-home>   I think the tool stuff is cool but needs to be separated out for this release 
18:05:17  <bdbaddog>     Greg: this is 1.3 related, vs_revamps supposed to go into 1.3 
18:05:33  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     But parts is not 
18:05:36  <sk>   unless we decide to release 1.3 as is without vs_revamp 
18:05:40  <garyo-home>   my point xactly 
18:05:46  <sk>   [GregNoel](GregNoel):  the issue is that to do the 1.3 API right 
18:06:02  <sk>   we need to incorporate some aspects of the architectural work that Jason's done on parts 
18:06:09  <sk>   specifically the 32-bit / 64-bit cross-compilation 
18:06:30  <sk>   my main concern is that if we don't at least have a road map to the cross-compilation API 
18:06:04  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I see.  But let's not get sidetracked to all of Parts. 
18:06:05  <Jason_at_intel>       I think teh current vs_revamp is a big improvement over the existing stuff 
18:06:30  <garyo-home>   that would scratch my itch at work big time. 
18:06:32  <Jason_at_intel>       however it 100% script .. the latest is missing the default logic 
18:06:39  <sk>   we could release something in 1.3 that boxes us into a corner 
18:07:03  <sk>   i'm okay with declaring actual 32-bit/64-bit cross-compilation out of scope to get 1.3 out the door 
18:07:12  <sk>   but i'm afraid if we don't know where we're going 
18:07:23  <sk>   1.3 will be a half-assed API that we'll have to support forever 
18:07:08  <bdbaddog>     Cross-compilation's not really mainstream is it? 
18:07:10  <Jason_at_intel>       have you look at the design notes on teh wiki for scons? 
18:07:25  <Jason_at_intel>       :-) wiki for Parts.. 
18:07:32  <garyo-home>   sk: agreed.  Which is more important: vs_revamp, or 1.3 schedule?  Either do it right and delay, or leave it out. 
18:07:49  <sk>   garyo-home:  nicely put 
18:07:58  <bdbaddog>     is vs_revamp(today) worse than trunk now? 
18:08:01  *      sk wishes he were as concise as the rest of the world... 
18:08:14  <sk>   it apparently doesn't even work for gary 
18:08:18  <Jason_at_intel>       I think vs_revamp is better than current 
18:08:23  <sk>   modulo local mods to his configuration 
18:08:43  <garyo-home>   true, but I have lots of add-on junk to find SDKs and stuff, probably conflicting w/ vs_revamp doing it correctly. 
18:09:04  <bdbaddog>     Gary do you have time to resolve the issues in your environment with vs_revamp in the near term? 
18:09:07  <garyo-home>   It does find the right compiler/linker, I just get link errors. 
18:09:12  <garyo-home>   I will try hard to do it this wk. 
18:09:28  <garyo-home>   Or early next. 
18:10:10  <garyo-home>   I do have a problem though that I have some old branches that still need to build, will need an old scons version to use them. 
18:10:04  <bdbaddog>     Can you extract your logic so we can resolve the issue without your  whole build? 
18:10:31  <garyo-home>   bdbaddog: I wish I could, it's all tangled up. 
18:10:35  <bdbaddog>     o.k. 
18:10:42  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     What I'm seeing is no freeze for 1.3 by this weekend, so I won't be able to use my upcoming gap for 1.3 to 2.0.  I've got other things to work on (the console view comes to mind) so the time won't be wasted. 
18:09:52  <sk>   bill and jason: 
18:10:02  <sk>   i have no meetings tomorrow during the day 
18:10:06  <sk>   actually, only one at 1:00 
18:10:24  <sk>   can we each set up times to meet via irc? 
18:10:30  <bdbaddog>     I only have a 3:45 meeting. 
18:10:43  <Jason_at_intel>       8:00 central for me.. any time after that 
18:10:56  <sk>   if so, I'll block out schedule time to meet for some real-time pair-investigation of what to do w/vs_revamp 
18:11:08  <bdbaddog>     cool. - lunch of course. 
18:11:13  <Jason_at_intel>       cool 
18:11:28  <garyo-home>   wait, when? 
18:11:29  <Jason_at_intel>       I be online irc after meeting then.. or wait for e-mail from you 
18:11:38  <sk>   okay 
18:11:43  <sk>   bill, you want to come to google for ftf? 
18:11:54  <bdbaddog>     SK; sure. 
18:12:03  <sk>   whatever's easiest 
18:12:10  <bdbaddog>     SK: I'll be in MV tomorrow so that's easy for me. 
18:12:24  <garyo-home>   Greg: I think you're right, it's too bad though. 
18:12:30  <garyo-home>   Your time is valuable. 
18:12:50  <sk>   big agreement with that 
18:13:07  <Jason_at_intel>       I second that 
18:13:16  <bdbaddog>     Being the eternal optimist, if we can resolve what needs doing tomorrow, it could be done by friday. 
18:13:17  <garyo-home>   Greg: could you do the 1.3->2.0 stuff on a branch?? 
18:13:43  *      sk likes the branch idea, if that works 
18:13:49  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     No.  It's massive changes; it needs to be done on the trunk.  No merges after it's done. 
18:14:14  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Probably over 30% of the code lines will be touched. 
18:14:28  <garyo-home>   Greg: I understand, just did that on my work codebase. 
18:14:59  <garyo-home>   ok, let's see where we can get soon, but Greg I wouldn't hold my breath for it. 
18:13:42  <garyo-home>   bdbaddog: I will see if I can get any insight into my issues ASAP. 
18:13:32  <sk>   jason, can you irc 11:00 PDT / 13:00 CDT ? 
18:13:48  <Jason_at_intel>       yes 
18:15:05  <sk>   okay, i'll try to prep for tomorrow 
18:15:14  <garyo-home>   ditto 
18:15:19  <sk>   bill, bring your laptop, you can irc in from the guest wifi 
18:15:34  <sk>   and we can break at some appropriate time to grab lunch 
18:15:55  <garyo-home>   I'll try to hang out on irc tomorrow too 
18:16:00  <bdbaddog>     SK: will do 
18:16:05  <bdbaddog>     SK: 11am 
18:16:09  <sk>   yes 
18:16:05  <sk>   shuttle stop in ~1 minute 
18:16:23  <sk>   excellent work folks, many thanks 
18:16:26  <Jason_at_intel>       great see you tomorrow then 
18:16:32  <sk>   tomorrow 
18:16:39  <sk>   Jason_at_intel:  you're CDT? 
18:16:59  <Jason_at_intel>       yes.. IL 
18:17:14  <Jason_at_intel>       else i would stop by google 
18:17:28  <garyo-home>   yeah, me too except wrong coast :-) 
18:16:34  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Two weeks for next meeting? 
18:16:40  <garyo-home>   good for me 
18:16:52  <sk>   two weeks next meeting 
18:17:12  <sk>   pretty amazing to have all the backlog cleared... 
18:17:28  <bdbaddog>     sk: Agreed Good work by All 
18:17:48  <garyo-home>   ok, see you on irc tmw 
18:17:54  *      [GregNoel](GregNoel) brb, somebody at door 
18:18:01  <sk>   [GregNoel](GregNoel):  many, many thanks for being the main driver for organizing and keeping all of this categorization on task over the last year 
18:18:22  <sk>   i have little doubt that we wouldn't have gotten this taken care of without you! 
18:18:37  <garyo-home>   sk: well said. 
18:19:39  <bdbaddog>     sk: Cheers for Greg! 
18:20:17  <Jason_at_intel>       agreed 
18:21:24  *      [GregNoel](GregNoel) has been marked as being away 
18:26:55  <garyo-home>   ok, bye 4 now 
18:27:04  *      garyo-home has quit ("[ChatZilla](ChatZilla) 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]") 
18:27:17  *      Jason_at_intel has quit ("[ChatZilla](ChatZilla) 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009021910]") 
18:29:13  <bdbaddog>     bye 
18:29:18  *      bdbaddog has quit ("[ChatZilla](ChatZilla) 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042315]") 
18:42:45  *      sk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 

Updated