New player Experience
Issue #10
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Yell0w >> September 18 - 00:16 Hey TLK!
Back with the 4th edition of this series, after Nuvelle stole a topic of me!
#1 Villages: http://bit.ly/1LAwzZW
#2 Diplomacy: http://bit.ly/1NG96wA
#3 Joining: http://bit.ly/1P3SegD
Today I would like to discuss the new player experience. We know that TLK is a complicated game with a lot of hidden rules and mechanics and no real logical way to learn these.
The current way of introducing people to tlk is to hide as much as possible until they are ready for it. Other then that, it's mostly to just ask people. It works, but personally I think it can do much and much better. What are your suggestions to improve the new player experience? What kind of problems did you encounter (if you remember)?
Think about ui improvements, optional learning scenario's and maybe even have a student-mentor mechanic. Tell me what you think!
I would like to request people to stay on topic, which would this time be the new player experience. You may discuss more advantaged stages of the new player experience like learning pvp and planning as well, but these discussion have been done a lot and I would love to focus on the first time playing experience.
Comments (29)
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obnosis >> September 18 - 02:15 the biggest problem for any new guy (sometimes even for more experienced people) is the number of units he can get and when he can start promoting them if he`s not buy/dismissing. reference guide does nothing for them. tlkhelp does, but not all people use that site. so, my suggestion is to add army calculators ingame and update the ref guide.
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Georgius >> September 18 - 02:57 Reference Guide does say stuff like this these days:
You need at least 68 Longswordman to reach promotion cap at Marshal or 62 Longswordman to reach the cap at Marquess You need at least 47 Champion to reach promotion cap at Marshal or 43 Champion to reach the cap at Marquess
and you don't have to calculate the wage/str/HP of a veteran tier 2 or whatever anymore, just click on the unit in Reference Guide
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Valix >> September 18 - 03:04 The problems I encountered:
- What country do I take?
- How do units differ? How do I need to balance them? Mounted/unmounted/ranged? Oh wait, I only take one kind?
- Ok, I trained.. Now what?
- Oh, I can take a hero. But how do they differ from my commander? Why can't I put skill points for him?
- I can join main army. Ok, what does this army do? SF what's that and how do I make it?
- How do we fight other countries?
- How does the age end?
- Darnit, I accidentaly closed webchat page again!
- Oh, pvp? How I do that? Oh, I unknowingly already decided that when I went to barracks?
- What's HC and WC? Wheeling? Planning? Diplo? NAP? Terrain? CF?
- ...
It's WAY too much at once.
I've though a lot about this subject - hence I started writing basic tutorials, and I have A LOT of suggestions. Though they are way too much to put into one forum post. When I have more time I'll put them in a document and link to that document in a later post.
EDIT: I will add now that I really like the mentor idea. Make it an option in-country where people can sign up as mentors / newbies.
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DGM >> September 18 - 03:52 I like the idea of having the reference guide relevant to your units below in your encampment page.
And you can't explain everything. Some things should remain trial and error. Maybe give some info everytime you open a page you haven't opened before?
Georgius, pretty sure it was WeirdHans
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MKerogazov >> September 18 - 04:03 Need more Tooltips and Infoboxes in the game explaining what to do and what different things are for. When I just started playing, I was a bit confused what should I do at all... There was a button for the Barracks, but when I went there, I found a whole lot of troops and I didn't know whether I have any troops or not and which ones I better hire. That was actually a point of leaving the game (but I clicked around and eventually got to the Market etc.)
Another suggestion is to have may be some little intro text or mini tutorial? - Like you are a [whoever you are] and your need to [whatever you need to do], then try [whatever else can be tried] and etc.
Just an opinion of another game developer ;)
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Valix >> September 18 - 04:14 I cba to write everything into detail. If something is unclear just ask. Some of my suggestions:
@ Age break - Automated age reset process and immediate, still show ranking results finished age - Video on site - as short as possible: not too much detail – just quickly what its’ about and how the players fits in + short aboout Commander roles (rank, pvp, ...) - Unit descriptions (always), short – tied to roles
@ General - Random joining as an added option – give small reward, like extra starting gold, an HT, … - New sub-forum: player guides - In-country mentorship - Improved chat – one that also has instructions how to setup country channel and how to invite bot - Updated and improved reference list - Updated layout where things are more easily found/more easily accessible while still keeping that TLK appeal - Planning tool – can be flash/whatever where players can practice planning skills - Search functionality on the map - Heal – indicator on hospital page, e.g.: cost: X in 1 tick, cost: Y in 2 ticks, … - Early training a bit easier to close gap with pro’s. At start to lt in one go (at least for infantry) without dismissing would be good imo. Pro’s with dismiss/rebuy will still have an edge, just not so much anymore.
EDIT: I can confirm what DGM said - WeirdHans Georgius: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBXfnJ97Oug
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Yell0w >> September 18 - 04:44 I always start these threads without many of my own suggestion in the original post to get people to think for themselves and I love how you guys already came up with the same ideas I had plus more! :)
I basically had the same idea about using tool tips and/or drop down boxes with extra explanation. And I also wanted to suggest to make a separate player guides forum (maybe only show posts after approval of admins). I also like the idea of using the chat immediately when the age starts.
As MKerogazov suggested, I think there should be a tutorial for new players. Probably just some text to point you in the right direction and just starts you off with training with a std type of unit. Explains how to hire, train, promote (and when to) and introduces new mechanics when unlocked. Should be relatively easy to implement.
Valix, with your suggestion about training being easier for lower ranks to reduce the gap. I probably am making the next topic about training ;) I already am brain storming some new idea's to make training more fun and actually giving it some introduction mechanics to later mechanics like pvp. So, hang on for that ;)
In the debate about layout, what do you guys think about immersion vs easiness? For example "Encampment" vs "Your Army". ( I still confuse barracks and castle for example ) Also, what other suggestion would you have for the layout?
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Valix >> September 18 - 23:27 Bit more clarity about that video idea I mentioned. Idea is that potential new player can very quickly see (hence video = fastest). What is this game? What's it about? What generally happens. This is where you as a player can fit in (lead/hc/SF's/PvP/rank). Short and powerful.
Another idea I didn't mention before: Make it easier to see if there are enemies on your border. For example a red bar on top of every page that says sth along the lines of "There are enemies at your border. To arms!"
About the layout I think you can do both. Keep the simplicity but add some complexion to now unused areas in order to immerse the player. So instead of all black at the borders add a scenery image. This image changes depending on what terrain you are. You can also add an imaged footer or something along those lines.
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Treena >> September 19 - 12:56 When I started I was able to talk to a friend, who had a bit more experience, in a audio chat room. That way was easier to ask questions about what army to take, what do you do next. And its easier to explain things and point things out.
In some other war games there are protection periods. So say for those who have under 5 ages experience you get a weeks pvp protection. As there is nothing worse than to think you know what you are doing and then you keep getting your army smashed every few hours.
For those who have under 5 ages experience they get the option to join a country that has the full number of people. That way there are people around to support them, and the chance the country might stay alive long enough to help them get an understanding of the game.
I like the idea of mentors. Because when you are starting out you do feel lost and when you don't know what to do, and if you don't know anyone, its so easy to just forget it and leave.
The forum is better now, it is more relevant and is actively used. Some of LoneVVolf's guides are very useful.
Maybe a little bit more detail about the armies. What is a good pvp army? what ratios if you take a mix/rainbow army? the benefits or downfalls of one type over another.
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OlRazzleDazzle >> September 19 - 20:18 I actually like idea of a free ht if you select random on age start or after country death, sounds fun and a decent incentive
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Cranberry >> September 19 - 23:04 I would defo make a tutorial area, where you can join and try out
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Plato >> September 20 - 20:16 This may sound completely retarded but I just want to put it out there. There's probably some flaws in my idea but how about, when you start as a Private, you don't get to pick a country until you're say Captain? You'd be able to pick your units and train them up, without having to be afraid of getting your army wrecked when you are a player of the more inactive kind. Country bonuses wouldn't take effect until you reach aforementioned rank. You'd make ALL units available to everybody and let the country strength still play its role when joining a country. PVPers would still have to join the right country in order to get their desired bonuses. Once you join a country, you would have to deal with the country specific units. Slots in this system, should be based on country strength to avoid overpowered nations.
You could add a chatroom for all people who haven't joined a country yet because they haven't reach said rank, this way people aren't totally isolated from others.
Perks:
- no more grey ranks doing nothing at all in a country all age
- less boundaries for new players to get screwed over in the learning stage
- PVPers get a broader range of units
- country strength would play a more important role in the beginning regarding slots, spreading the high ranks out
- people wouldn't be able to join a country anymore, go offline immediately and rank up the next day, preventing other players to join.
It probably has a lot of flaws too, I admit.
Thoughts?
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Yell0w >> September 20 - 21:34 Plato, that idea needs to be thought out really really well to make sure it has no big downsides but I kinda like it! The few problems I see are maybe that I don't know how country specific units would work and that people who don't dismiss/rebuy at the start of an age can't join a stack. And lastly suicide in country wouldn't really work anymore. But it might work with a few additional changes...
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Valix >> September 20 - 23:15 It's certainly something interesting to think about and I've been thinking about something similar, but it won't work in my opinion:
- Low rank PvP'ers and people going for SF medals would hate you. You can start joining armies from LT so only able to join at captain makes the entire LT rank obsolete. You could make it that it's only possible at LT, but really what's the point then?
Wouldn't it be much better to just kick people out who don't reach LT by x-time? (Like between 24 and 48h or so, before the first wars usually start.)
- You would kill off stacking effectively. People joining stacks as PvP'ers might not rank as fast to lt as the rankers, thus making it more difficult for all to get in. Also those with a different play shift (day vs night shift) or age starting at a bad time would also influence this. People joining and logging off usually play within 24h anyway so no harm. Kick those who don't out of the country.
Some might be thinking: Yey! Less chance of stacking! Killing off stacks in this stage of the game's life would kill it. Imo there's not even room anymore to experiment with it with the playerbase as it is. KnC tried that with ONLY random joining and it died. Learn from history.
- I don't really see the point in having region-only units this way anymore. They might still exist on paper but technically all units would be standard units and the allure of region-only units and countries will disappear.
For example the Rome Map with Rome units having added leadership - makes the country in general less strong in PvP but stronger in MvM, which is an added fun way of strategising. Having every type of unit spread everywhere from the beginning is a quality of life enhancement that doesn't really make sense in the big scope of things. Having to make choices in a game is a good thing. Also, could you imagine the giant mess that would make with terrain bonuses?
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Cmdrsteele >> September 22 - 05:24 I am for extra protection for new players... Mentoring sounds like a godd idea as well.. I do think the game should be simplified a bit or have thourogh tutorials... maybe both... personally i like the complexity of strategy involved in the game.. but can see how it would be overwhelming to new players.. that in addition to how time consuming the game is if you wanna be decent seems like a lot for a new player...
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Godfried95 >> September 22 - 06:24 Btw the videos Georgius where reffering to are from WeirdHans just look for last knights ranking guide.
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Viceroy >> September 22 - 11:41 Regarding Plato's proposal: You're looking at it incorrectly. The only reason he suggested captain is because that is the rank most armies need to hit to have a completely built army. The appropriate answer is to rebalance all app units so that players have a full roster of units as they reach LT, which, oh look at that, happens to be the rank at which people start to be useful to their country.
Also, as a perennial stacker, I do not see why it is an issue to have fast, experienced rankers spread out a little more. Then again, maybe I'm only saying this because I have never completed my first training "run" of an age within an allotted 30 minute time window...
The point of this is that, yes, it would change the game drastically as the mechanics behind initial joining would have to be completely reworked, but this is an excellent idea.
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Viceroy >> September 22 - 11:46 Also, re: Valix's third point: unlocking regional units, as Plato is suggesting would make all maps ultimately easier to balance while bringing far more variation to each age. Mag stack in Kediri anyone? How about Sena Sammies? If we're going to have this many different units, the least you can do is give us more viable countries to run them in. This is why I loved the changes to Asia, seeing as how the number of countries with max bonus BM's rose from 2 to 4 overnight.
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Viceroy >> September 22 - 11:49 One final thought, as a gray rank, are you really part of a country? I mean, sure, you joined it and can post in CT, but are you REALLY part of that country?
The answer is not just no, but Hell no. Gray ranks are a complete waste. You are not helping and you are not having fun. This area should be ripe for the picking. Let's make it useful and turn it into an optional tutorial to introduce people into the game.
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Plato >> September 24 - 09:34 I've come up with an improvement of my own suggestion.
The situation as it is for age 205 in Asia, 9 hours after it has started is the following:
about 20 out of 30 countries have 10 players in it. The other 30 players are scattered around the remaining 10 nations.
How about getting rid of 5 countries? And by getting rid I mean leaving them blank. They would still exist on the map but they would be neutral, for everyone to capture.
And how about we put all the new players in those countries? In these countries you would still have the region specific units and you can train like in every other nation. The difference would be that - even after promoted to blue ranks - you would not participate in any battles (like the kicking of allied cities under 5 commanders) nor would you be able to get PVPed. Gives new players a chance to get to know the game better without getting bashed by the big boys.
So, when you have to pick your country you would get the opportunity to either "Join as a new player and explore the game mechanics" (ending up in a random neutral country) or pick a country like is implemented at the moment.
As soon as the new player would reach the rank of Capt, he would get kicked out of the neutral country and has to pick a country compulsory.
In case the new player's neutral country would be defeated, the player gets the opportunity to either choose a new random country (ending up in another neutral country) or pick a country of his choice, henceforth participating in the real game).
Make a chat button available from the beginning that redirects players to #tlk-news. It's a great introduction to the tlk channel where a lot of players are able to help out with questions.
In order to make it not too easy for those neutral countries to be overthrown, make the city garrisons twice as big for example, and the capital four times as big?
The 5 neutral countries will change every age to make it even more interesting!
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Viceroy >> September 24 - 09:52 The "neutral country" that new players joins should be completely disassociated with the countries that are in play. New players cannot be expected to start playing at the start of each age. Even if they do, they will rank decidedly slower. This advantage would not last longer than a couple days, leaving a large portion of the age without an acceptable tutorial period.
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Plato >> September 24 - 10:12 You're right about that, Viceroy.
So would you suggest a tutorial where the new player doesn't take any part in the game unless he suicides and start all over again to play for real?
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Viceroy >> September 24 - 10:45 Your newest proposal would probably be acceptable as is if the country they were in simply did not exist on the map.
Personally, I would like to see it kick people out to join real countries as they first hit blue ranks, but that would only be if they could field a complete army by that time as well. In other words, my pipe dream would require a complete rebalancing of T1 units.
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MKerogazov >> September 25 - 05:19 Well, there is Atlantis, new players can start there ;)
As for the units - there are definitely too many units for beginners and definitely not enough info on why would I pick one rather than another
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Nuvelle >> September 25 - 05:27 Plato - your mind is very closely aligned with mine :)
I am following all these threads very closely :P
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Cmdrsteele >> September 25 - 20:06 Yay for nuevelle!!!
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Kargool >> Today - 00:09 I think that battle calculators should be more implemented into the game. We dont have to have calculators that show the exact result of a battle, but we can have calculators that give advice. For example in mvm situations, if you spy fully your spyreport could have a "threat level" or battle probability rating. Like chances of winning: very low, low, medium, high very high.
So that after spying a new or inexpirienced HC can have a safeguard to make sure that they dont completely mess up. Sure, we might see less fail mvms but in the long run it also helps. A full spyreport should also be able to remember what units was in last spyreport. so that we dont need to use offsite tools to get a complete spyreport, but only use the same tools ingame.
Still quick mvm drops will happen and dropping main while training etc, but this will atleast work as a possible tool to help people make better decisions for their country.
I do like Platos idea about no joining a country till a rank is achived, it can be made Lieutenant for example. My suggestion is that you just make 3 core units up to lieutenant, which you when put in a country get to make into regionalised units. Like from private to lt you have 3 units. Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery. Then when you go to lieutenant you get the choice to change them into the units your country offers. (Arty need to have a slight adjustment for r.acc but it shouldnt be too hard.
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- changed status to invalid
Not an idea/suggestion, was a brainstorm thread.
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Georgius >> September 18 - 01:40
There used to be this guy who made YouTube videos of himself training up and explaining why and how to noobies. But I can't find them videos now and don't remember his name... Think it was Hans something... Hans_Schwans or whatever.
Anyway digging back to when I started, back before aTLK or KnC ever was a thing, back before Pro and Fun servers. I think I ran into 2 major issues for the newb that I was: - I didn't have IRC. This is somewhat solved with the ingame Chat function, but I feel it could be better: 1. A country can only get the Chat function when a HC is up. Whereas noobs need help right now, the game is first shut down 24 hours inbetween ages and then on Day 1 all the 'pros' rank up when noobs cannot get the help they need. Make Chat available at the start of the age. 2. Even if the Chat is available in the menu, Country Chat rooms can be empty. Especially in the weak countries, where the noobs will have ended up joining into. Make #tlk-news the default IRC chan for anyone anytime, and CC the second option to join.