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The White Hand

Issue #142 new
joseasoler repo owner created an issue

Ideally, it could be implemented as a religion like in MagisterModMod. If the religion is too complicated and/or I decide that it is not worth the effort, Tasunke made an alternate proposal to implement it as a membership civic (originally posted at https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/issue/71/civic-changes)

If implemented as a religion, following it could unlock the construction of Ice Golems for the Luchuirp (see the discusion in #3).

Tasunke Witka

Membership Civic (not necessarily Illian Only) 'The White Hand' ... available @ Priesthood

gives +2 happiness for Ice Mana

Illian Palace gets +5 votes in 'The White Hand' membership.

-25% war weariness

Only available if Illians are in the Game(?) -> uncertain.

Votes are ... 'Secret Trade Agreement', 'Ban Fire Mana', 'Ban Sun Mana', 'Ban Nature Mana', 'Stop War against a member state', 'Start war against X non-member', 'Choose council leader', and 'Give council leader 100 gold'

Illian vassals would join the membership civic automatically (somehow) ... the civic otherwise has a negative AI weight (other than for Illians).

low priority, alternative solution is implementing White Hand religion.

Comments (10)

  2. joseasoler reporter
    • edited description

    IMO priests of winter (in the way they are currently implemented) are meant to be something unique and because of that only the Illians should have them. In MagisterModMod priests of winter are implemented in a different way that seems to allow anyone following the religion to build the low tier priests as long as they have Ice Mana while keeping the powerful ones unique for the Illians. In ExtraModMod, Ice mana is kept as something very rare. We could always think about a similar implementation that works with how ExtraModMod deals with Mana.

  4. Tasunke Witka

    Well ...

    I think Priests of Winter and High Priests of Winter should have a national limit (of 3).

    Granted, I believe that buildable versions should not be allowed until Religious Law, and should require a source of Ice Mana to boot.

    Currently there are only 2 sources of Ice mana: Letum Frigus and Illian Palace.

    The Holy Shrine (buildable by Prophet on the holy city) should give 1 additional ice mana. Holy City of the White Hand will always be the first city built by the Illians (usually their capital). However the religion is not considered fully founded (and therefore unspreadable) until Priesthood. Upon Priesthood, Temples of Winter can build 'Neophytes' which can spread the White Hand religion as Missionaries. With religious law, temples of winter can additionally build Priests of Winter if the nation has access to Ice Mana (up to a max of 3). High Priests of Winter require level 6 and Theology tech, and will also have a national limit of 3.

    Illian Pagan UB will be renamed to 'Winter's Blessing' and will spread snow terrain as normal.

    New Temple of Winter will require Priesthood tech, as well as following the White Hand, to build. It gives 1 unhappy face, and 2 happy faces with ice mana. Each temple of winter will increase your diplomatic relations with an Illian leader by +1. Each Temple of Winter increases the AC by 1. Temples of Winter give 1 priest slot and 1 bard slot. They also decrease GPP by 20% and increase hammers by 10%. and increase culture by 25%.

  5. joseasoler reporter

    In ExtraModMod, Priests of Winter and High Priests of Winter are the only units that can build ice nodes. This means that it is usually desirable for the Illians to get as much Ice Mana as they can. Since the Illians usually have the Ice Mana monopoly already, and they would always be the ones with the Holy Shrine, IMO it should not give additional Ice Mana to them. Since the White Hand would be quite easy to get for them and would also be an usual part of their strategy, IMO it shouldn't give too big bonuses (it would probably give only culture as yields).

    As I mentioned, I prefer to keep the real Priests of Winter as unique units for the Illians, with the same building and upgrade mechanics they have now. Otherwise the Illians lose something that makes them unique. The default disciple units for the White Hand would be something on the line of the Neophyte Tasunke mentions and a level 2 disciple who can cast lesser spells such as maybe Slow and/or Whiteout, or maybe a new one. The White Hand would have no level 3 disciple (their god is dead and the religion should not be meant to be as powerful as the other ones).

    With regard to temples, since they can be massed, IMO they should not modify diplomatic relations. Since Mulcarn was uninterested in bringing hell to earth, it shouldn't increase the AC either IMO.

  6. lfgr

    Do you plan to make the religion available to everyone?

    I think in MagisterModMod only Illian and Doviello players are allowed to adopt it; and all players that have the White Hand as state religion become vassals of Auric if he completes The Draw.

    I think an option would to only allow illians and their vassals to adopt it. Having the white hand spread could have negative effects similar to these of Magister's Cult of the Dragon (I think The White Hand really shouldn't help any other nation than the Illians, as in the age of rebirth it focuses on Auric's ascent). On the other hand, tolerant players should be able to use certain bonuses, especially since IIRC tolerant players gain really nothing from having a former illian city.

    I you ever implement a terraforming system for the illians, like I described in this post, one of these negative effects could be the increased spreading rate of snow and tundra, but that's still far off.

  7. Tasunke Witka

    I had not realized that Priests of Winter were able to construct Ice Mana nodes. However, if we do make a holy shrine (not saying that we will) but if we do, then I see no reason to have the expense of a great prophet give something less than an additional source of Mana.

    Additional AI changes would be to make Auric more likely to gift Ice mana to Vassals that he likes. thereby allowing them to strengthen their armies with Priests of Winter.

    I think Religious Law is still an acceptable technology for the construction of additional priests, unless there are any objections.

    I agree that High Priests of Winter should only be buildable by Illians (perhaps require a Winter's Blessing building in the city)

    The Illians will of course keep their original 3 at Philosophy, via completion of a Ritual.

    I agree that the AC rise can be removed, as Mulcarn was not a direct collaborator of Agares but was rather a separate and independent evil force.

    I do believe, however, that Temples of the Veil should increase the AC by 1 (so that both Planar Gates and Veil temples increase the AC). I also believe that the Prophecy of Ragnarok should have a base AC change of about 5, in addition to its promotion based AC increases.

  8. joseasoler reporter

    lfgr: I don't have any specific plans with regard to the White Hand. This is just brainstorming :)

    What you say makes sense. I already think that the White Hand should not be as good as the other religions, and therefore having it as an imposition makes sense. But I also wouldn't like to prevent anyone to adopt the religion if they want to. I'm not sure about the best option. I don't know how the Cult of the Dragon plays in MagisterModMod so I don't know what detrimental effects it has.

    I made a task about the terraforming (https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/issue/146/improved-deepening). The White Hand could also come as a requirement to survive the snow; if its temple gives additional food in snow (to everyone except the Illians, of course), more civilizations would be willing to adopt it. Of course, this would snowball the Deepening effect creating even more snow.

    Tasunke: I don't think that Temples of the Veil should increase the AC, since having the religion in the city already increases it.

  9. Tasunke Witka

    I suppose my thoughts on the matter of the Veil temple, is that simple presence of Veil does indeed cause an AC increase, but spreading the Veil is a very limited form of AC spread, and if the rather expensive temple could aid in the theme of spreading evil to bring about the end of the world, then why not? Also, it would make inquisitions even more important in certain cases. I am debating whether or not Asylums should increase the AC (even though simple OO spread does not) merely based upon its implementation. That being said, it would be somewhat lore appropriate for certain OO buildings to increase the AC, as its holy shrine does indeed increase the AC (albeit not as much as the Stigmata, iirc)

    I'm just looking into various ways for the player (and AI) to control both rises and falls in the Armageddon Counter.

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