Armageddon Counter changes
Issue #148
new
The following existing issues make changes to how the AC works and what can be done with it:
https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/issue/112/elohim-monks https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/issue/103/victory-condition-revamp
There is some discussion going on in this issue, meant to continue here: https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/issue/142/the-white-hand#comment-6279430
Comments (13)
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reporter
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Perhaps this is true. I must think upon this ^_^
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We definitely need to dive deeper within what causes AC changes. For instance, a +1 doesn't always equal a '+1' on the AC meter. The smaller the map the more the AC changes, and the larger the map the slower the AC changes. What I would like, however, is a subtler curve towards the later stages of the appocalypse.
For some reason, towards 'the end', the AC seems to increase so rapidly as to bearly be able to be kept up with. I assume this is due to horsemen razing cities, or something. We should play around with the code, and values, to find what will work best for our (hopefully) more subtle approach. In this case, I'm thinking something quite a bit more complex, but only as necessary, in order to make the AC flow more like would be expected and predictable (to an extent). Well ... its easy to talk theory, but lets place some numbers on the table.
subAC = max1000, AC = (subAC / 10) -> So that we can increase the AC in increments of 0.1
Additions to AC: (AC effects stack)
Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Hyborem, and Mardero each increase the AC by 1 when built. (it reverts when they die)
Eidolons and Beasts of Agares increase the AC by 0.2 when built Liches increase the AC by 0.1 apiece. Each Profane (AV high priest) increases the AC by 1 when upgraded/built. Each Balor increases AC by 1 when built, but NOT when summoned ... so only Infernals (and Diabolical Pacts) can increase the AC via Balors.
Every time an undead unit kills a living unit, AC is increased by 0.1
Every time a Demon kills a living unit, AC is increased by 0.2
Every time a Demon kills a non-living unit, AC is increased by 0.1
Every time an Angel kills a living unit of good religion (Empy/RoK/Order), AC is increased by 0.1
Units with Prophecy Mark promotion increase AC is increased by 1 just by existing, and with each successful kill of ANY type, AC is increased by 0.5
Units with Stigmata Promotion increase the AC by 0.5 while alive. If a Stigmata affected unit kills a living unit, the AC is increased by 0.1
The War equipment increases kill AC by 0.2 (so if a living unit kills a living unit with War, it increases AC by 0.2, if Buboes or some other demon kills a living unit with War, it increases the AC by 0.4. If a Paladin kills a demon with War, it only reduces the AC by 0.3)
Octopus Overlords religion increases AC by 0.2 per city, Esus by 0.1, Ashen Veil by 1.0 Ashen Veil Temple by 1.0 Asylum by 0.5 Necronomicon by 1.0 Stigmata of the Unborn by 2.0. Infernal Palace and Mercurian Palace both increase AC by 1.0 each. Prophecy of Ragnarok increases AC by 10.0, While Infernal Grimoire increases the AC by 5.0 only the first time it is built. (item rebuildings don't count).
Percentage of Land covered by Hell affects the AC by Percentage/10= AC affect. So 100% hell-land would increase AC by 10, and if that was reversed it would decrease by 10 reaching 0 effect.
All City Razings increase the AC by 1. (just one) -> If said City formerly had AC increasing buildings, the AC would reduce by exactly (Total of religions + Buildings)-1
Reductions:
If a Paladin kills a demonic Unit, it reduces the AC by 0.5 (Manes don't count) If a Druid kills a demonic unit, it reduces the AC by 0.1 If a Luridus, Prior, or Runekeeper kills a demonic unit, it reduces the AC by 0.1 If an Angel kill a demonic Unit, it reduces the AC by 0.1 (Manes don't count)
If a Luonnotar kills a demon, it reduces AC by 0.2, if a Luonnotar kills an angel, it reduces AC by 0.1
Order presence in a city reduces AC by 0.2, Empyrian reduces by 0.1
Chalid reduces the AC by 1, Valin reduces the AC by 1, Sphener reduces the AC by 2. Each time one of these units kills a demon, the AC is reduced by 1.
Temple of Order reduces the AC by 0.2, Basilica reduces the AC by 0.5
Each Monk reduces the AC by 0.1, each time a Monk kills a demon or undead the AC is reduced by 0.1
Reliquaries decrease the AC by 0.5. Casting Sanctify on City Ruins decreases AC by 0.5
Each time a Horseman of the Appocalypse is killed, the AC is reduced by 5.
Additional Changes:
Hallowing of Elohim and Elegy of Sheaim reduced to 100 hammers (used to be 600). Affects the AC by 1 each (used to be 5)
Any nation can build Diabolical Pact after receiving the Infernal Pact tech. Like the Elegy of Shieam, this is a repeatable Ritual. It gives the owner a free Balor unit. Costs 240 hammers ... but it is built 25% faster with Fire, Death, Chaos, and Entropy each. Can gain more than 4 Balors in this manner.
Infernals blocked from Diabolical Pact, instead they get 'Unholy Ritual' which increases AC by 1 and gives a free Mane.
Any nation can build Remember the Compact ritual after researching the Fanaticism tech (meaning even Neutrals and Agnostics like the Grigori (or Illians) can build it). It reduces the AC by 1. It costs 240 hammers. It can be built 25% faster with Spirit, Law, Force, and Life mana each. Repeatable Ritual. Infernals and Mercurians blocked from 'Remember the Compact' as both are currently breaking the Compact.
Prophecy of Ragnarok is now Semi-permanent (done in building class). There can still be only one at any given time, but if one is destroyed, another can be created/built.
New National Wonder 'Cathedral of Despair'. Requires Ashen Veil state religion and at least three temples of the Veil. Cathedral gives +1 AC, and additionally grants Stigmata to new units (like Stigmata of the Unborn).
If possible, all rituals should be blocked from multiple builds across the same owner (so someone can't build Elegy in each city simultaneously, for instance)
NOTES:
All ritual based AC changes and all Kill-based AC changes are more or less 'permanent' and only reversible by other in game actions (can be reversed by equally permanent changes in the opposite direction). However AC caused by buildings, and by the existence of promotions, and by the existence of certain units, can easily be reversed. If said building or said unit no longer exists, its intrinsic AC affect also disappears.
A common theme in FFH2 is that AC should always more easily increase than decrease. That being said, I have included mechanics that would allow for a full reversal of the AC, but it won't come cheaply. One core mechanic that should be confirmed before much of this is implemented is the mechanic that no two cities of the same owner should be able to put hammers towards the same ritual. Otherwise some other limitation would have to be put in place for how often/ how quickly a repeatable ritual's effect can take place. One option would be for the completion of one ritual to set all other cities' hammers towards that ritual to zero. If production is handled by the cities one at at time, rather than simultaneously, this might could work in even the most extreme of cases. I would prefer if only one city could even begin to build the ritual at any one time. and while being built cannot be started by a second or third city. I think this is reasonable given the low costs of the new rituals. And it also makes for less drastic (and technically more efficient) changes for each individual completion.
In the current Mod, 90% of the AC comes from city razes ... however with this new model 90% of the AC will come from measurable acts of Evil (Veil, Stigmata, Prophecy of Ragnarok, Demonic units walking the earth, Demonic units 'winning', etc) and will be, imho, more predictable over-all, rather than a huge city that may increase the AC by 20 simply for being razed. Also, it makes it so that the Infernals could technically contribute the most to the AC, while in some versions of FFH2 the Infernals couldn't contribute nearly as much as other civs (due to auto-spread of AV, ironically). And the "quick-fix" to this problem only created Out of Sync errors each time Infernals captured (and kept) a city.
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reporter
Your proposal would probably need a lot of testing and tweaking to get the numbers right, but I agree that once polished it would probably be superior to the current system. Diabolical pact should IMO be more expensive, as it is giving you a high tier unit.
I don't think it is possible to prevent having two cities building the same ritual. Since the game keeps the production spent on projects for a while even after cancelling them, what should the game do if you cancel the production of a ritual in one city and start building in another?
This should IMO come after the implementation of the new AC mechanics described in the Elohim Monks issue (#112).
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Maybe it would be okay to implement it even if simultaneous builds are possible, I'll just need to think on it. Map size determines how greatly raw AC affects the actual AC. Therefore technically it might be balanced to have multiple builds ... especially since each increase the AC by only '1'
Honestly, I have this idea of making the ARMAGEDDON EVENTS happen at different AC levels than the do now, to make crazy battles to prevent armageddon, as well as the Savior victory, as far more likely an occurance. Currently with the wild swinging of the AC, Savior victory is something left to the RNG. What happens is that by the time that all the pieces are in place (around 40-50 AC or so) the rate of AC increase begins to go up due to a number of factors ... so all of the pieces suddenly pop all at once. What I would prefer is a gradual 'late game AC' as compared to getting to the 'beggining' of the Appocalypse.
We might be able to pull this off far sooner than we thought possible :)
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All we need is either a higher max AC (somewhere between 200 and 1000)
Or a way to get fractional AC increases. And I think we will hit the sweet spot :)
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reporter
What is the Savior victory? I have not seen it mentioned elsewhere besides here. IMO reducing the AC and/or preventing the apocalypse should not grant victory. That strategy just prevents the evil civilizations instigating it from achieving victory and ruining your chances on the way. It also IMO does not fit the theme of Erebus; just because you saved the world from apocalypse does not mean that all other civilizations are automatically going to aknowledge you as their leader and savior.
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Hehehe, it was discussed in the primary thread, but isn't a necessary addition. If you look hard enough you will find your own words on the matter. but yes, rethinking, it's probably better to just give the good civs a chance to prevent one of the evils getting gone to hell victory.
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Account Deleted
Savior victory sounds like defeating all evil civs.
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reporter
That would IMO be too similar to winning a diplomatic victory on the Overcouncil.
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Okay, I'll briefly recall the Savior victory to jog everyone's memory :)
Requires that the AC has reached 70, has never reached 100, and is currently below X
Below 50? Below 30? Zero?
It requires that of the Order, Empyrean, and Kilmorph holy cities, at least two of the three remain. And that the Ashen Veil holy city has been either razed to the ground or occupied by Angels. (removed)
And that Messhaber if Dis is not on the map (never built, or if built, killed in some way)
The savior is the person that has had the largest negative impact on the AC at the moment that all conditions are met.
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You could also add this or a similar requirement: Adopt Runes, Order or Empyrean and ensure a total religious influence of 70% of these three religions.
That way it would be similar to a religious victory of one of the three good religions (maybe too similar), but instead of purging the two other good religions, you'd have to save the world.
The downside is of course that the religion influence requirement needs some planning and opposed to this the AC requirement is only valid when an evil player pushes the AC up to 70, and therefore quite situational.
Besides that, from a roleplaying view I agree the savior victory is not really fitting.
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In case you're not aware, there seem to be functionality available in Orbis and other Modmods to count AC contribution of a player, see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=327575 (first posts after introduction). Haven't looked at the code, though.
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Tasunke: With regard to your comments in the White Hand issue (https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/issue/142/the-white-hand#comment-6279430), IMO the ways to increase the AC that already exist can be barely kept as way with the existing ways to reduce the AC we have now. An efficient way to increase the AC such as making the Temples of the Veil increase it in 1 would need some counter and even then this would IMO make it fluctuate too fast.